DM Alexander Kilcoyne's Kingmaker PBP- Chapter 3

Game Master Alexander Kilcoyne

"The Maven of the Green came to me in a dream just over a week ago, and said that this place was ripe for settling..."

Agai Culchek, 4714 AR

Group Site | Kingdom Rules | SRD Reference | Chapter 2 | Chapter 1 | Interlude 2 | Interlude 1 | Cities and Armies |
Varnhold & Nomen Heights |


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Duke of Kardas, First Sword of Iomedae HP:51/76 AC:27 F:+14, R:+8, W:+12 CMD:23/24 P:-1 Init:+0 AOO:+16

bah, ignore that intruder..he is confused.
Ricter for General and everyone else stays the same...I had it the saame in my notes as well...I guess it was to early in the morning...

Any feedback on the questions?


Your Humble Narrator

Alias mixup Malthir? Planning on giving DMing KM another go?


Male Halfling 8th level Fey Bloodline Sorcerer
Stats:
Init +6 Perception +4 AC 21 Tch 15 FF 19 HP 62 Fort +6 Ref +6 Will +8 Spd 20' CMB +2 CMD 14 Acro+4 Bluff+11 Climb-1 Diplo+6 Disg+16 Esc+2 Fly+10 Know (Arca+6 Loc+7 Nat+7) Sense+0 Spellcraft+13 Stealth+14 Use Magic+12 Swim-1

Questions look fine for starters...

(And Eadric is watching you!)

;)


Duke of Kardas, First Sword of Iomedae HP:51/76 AC:27 F:+14, R:+8, W:+12 CMD:23/24 P:-1 Init:+0 AOO:+16
DM Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Alias mixup Malthir? Planning on giving DMing KM another go?

No DM'ing for me thanks....busy with my Serpent's Skull tabletop and PBP games, just helping a friend with his KM campaign. He has a lot of misunderstandings around the Kingdom Building stuff. I figure you and I spent a lot of time around it figuring it all out and have a pretty good handle on it so I told him I would help him set up a discussion around it on the forum since hardly anyone actually has this site blocked as part of their firewall. He doesn't do anything on these forums so I set up the thread for him.


Male Human Writer 2/Dreamer 7
Malthir Al Dagon wrote:

Basically I was thinking we could move a little forward to see if we could find some answers from Lord Sirian's corpse.

Any specific questions we should ask him? Here are a few I came up with:
Do you wish to be raised back to life?
Who or what attacked you?
Why did you get attacked?
Why were you coming to Kardas? (Confirm his real motivation for coming to Kardas)

Fine, except for "Why did you get attacked?" It's highly likely he does not know. I'd rather use that question to ask about the gift he was carrying. We might use that info to track down the killers if they took it.


Male (HP 26/71, AC- 23 T- 15 FF- 18 CMD- 28, F +11, R +10, W +6, P +15*, In +3*, AOO +17) Half-orc Ranger (Guide) 7/Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 1

Kalev for Marshall for the time being, unless there's a demand for me to step up as General.


Duke of Kardas, First Sword of Iomedae HP:51/76 AC:27 F:+14, R:+8, W:+12 CMD:23/24 P:-1 Init:+0 AOO:+16

Okay, here are the first set of questions:
Do you wish to be raised back to life?
Who or what attacked you?
Please describe in detail the item you were bringing to Kardas as a gift.
Why were you coming to Kardas? (Confirm his real motivation for coming to Kardas)


hp 66/66, AC 26/17/20, CMD 23/24, F: +8, R: +11, W: +7, init: +5, per: +10 Human Bard 6/Fighter 2

Ok, locate object is too short-range and specifies that the caster must have physically observed the item to work. But a detailed description of the item would still be good.

Dark Archive

No longer matters Drow Lich Epic level Wizard/Cleric of considerable ability

Which spell could we use to ascertain his willingness to be raised? I can't off the top of my head think of another spell that allows one to correspond directly with the souls of those departed or their remains.

Or to cut to the chase, if we attempt a raise dead and the target refuses, do we lose the material expenditure? :)


Not to contradict the DM, but surely in his last moments, the soon-to-be-dead guy either thought, 'Eh, I've lived a good life,' or 'No! I've left so much undone!'

Or, in Miracle Max terms, "What you got here that's worth living for?" :)

Dark Archive

No longer matters Drow Lich Epic level Wizard/Cleric of considerable ability

When I run the spell in my games, the spell limitation is in regards to events that the soul was present for. Or on other words, the soul can speak to events that happened on the material plane prior to its death AND to events the soul has experienced in the afterlife. The second part is usually nothing worth noting, other than general experiences/feelings and/or the desires of the soul (ie desire to return to life etc).

Questions pertaining the to the afterlife that would likely receive an answer would be things like:
"Are you happy?"
"Are you at peace?"
"Any messages for loved ones?"
"Do you wish to return to life?"
etc

Just my thoughts.

Cheers


Your Humble Narrator
Speak With Dead wrote:


The soul can only speak about what it knew in life.

See quoted rules text above- whether it is happy in the next world etc. is definitely not something it knew in life.

However, a cleverly phrased question could potentially ascertain how happy he was with his life etc. and give some indication of whether he wishes to be raised.

"If you had been asked whether you would want to keep on living before the attack happened, what would your answer have been?"

Its not perfect of course, as Lord Sirian perhaps had no idea how awesome his afterlife would be ;).

Bear in mind though, that the GP cost of reincarnate/resurrection is not consumed if the soul refuses to return. If the soul refuses, it happens right at the start of the ritual; the long casting time for these spells to me, represents that the soul is wiling and it is being called forth in this time. Thus, the material component is never used.


Technically, according to Golarion lore, I don't believe the soul knows if it's happy in the afterlife until after it's no longer raiseable; if Pharasma knows a soul is fated to be returned to life in some form, she doesn't judge it. Thus, a soul always returns to the Material Plane out of the queue in the Boneyard rather than from one of the celestial planes, or from the nine hells, or wherever it's fated eventually to end up.

I'm not sure if I read that in a book or from James Jacobs on the messageboards, though.


Your Humble Narrator

So prophecy doesn't work in Golarion, but whether someone is going to be raised or not can be accurately predicted? Yeah, i'm not buying that...

I think i'd prefer it like they did it in Supernatural. You have no memories of the afterlife when you come back.

+ I don't like how that tramples all over agency theory and the concept of characters affecting the world...

Dark Archive

No longer matters Drow Lich Epic level Wizard/Cleric of considerable ability

I just so happened to have been reading the Pathfinder novel "Death's Heretic" by Mr. Sutter (and I believe the books follow canon, or are PFS approved or something, but I could be wrong) the past few days and in the book...

Here be spoilers!:
A departed soul is in fact questioned regarding whether it wants to be resurrected. It declines, stating it is at peace, before passing along a message to a loved one and then departing for the Boneyard and beyond. The exact spell is not mentioned at this point, but earlier in the book they used Speak With Dead to try and question the same soul for the same purpose but was "blocked" by circumstances that I will not spoil here and now. :)

If Speak With Dead does not function in this manner, which spell would allow this type of inquiry?

Not arguing... just trying to figure it out.

So I repeat my earlier question: Which spell is capable of conversing with the souls of the departed if not Speak With Dead?

Dark Archive

No longer matters Drow Lich Epic level Wizard/Cleric of considerable ability

After giving it some more thought... perhaps the info in my spoiler above is not entirely accurate. Without going into more spoilers for the book.. I will think some more and get back to you. :)

Hint: I am now of the opinion that the single use of the word "soul" in the Speak With Dead spell description should replaced with "corpse".


Your Humble Narrator

I'm not going to start arguing canon, I have 40K RP for that. And I consider Pathfinder novels irrelevant to spell mechanics, for that matter. Especially as what your describing directly contradicts the spell mechanics. Spells do what plot needs them to do in fiction books.

I will note that even in its 3.5 version, you were not contacting the soul itself. See the quoted rule texts from 3.5 Speak With Dead (bolded sections for emphasis)-

3.5 Speak With Dead wrote:


The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any).

This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information.

So even in 3.5, you could not use it to ask someone if they wished to return from the afterlife. The wording has changed since then and in PF you appear to contact the soul itself, but this isn't actually specified. Its just as likely it functions as the 3.5 version did, where you were not actually speaking to the soul itself. In fact, this is actually strongly implied by referring to 'giving the corpse semblance of life', 'corpses knowledge is limited to what it knew in life'. But then they use the word soul instead (on a single occasion, as opposed to multiple references to corpse). The main thing that makes me confident in my ruling is this line, which I have already quoted to you.

Pathfinder Speak With Dead wrote:


The soul can only speak about what it knew in life.

Theres no ambiguity there. Its crystal clear. How could you ask if the soul is at peace in the afterlife when it clearly couldn't know that when it was alive? Perhaps the soul is simply prevented from answering by Pharasma's divine will, not wanting the secrets of the afterlife to be common knowledge.

Tldr- Speak With Dead is usually grossly misunderstood by most players. I actually think it was clearer in 3.5.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, to return to your earlier question, when in doubt, try a search ;). Contact Other Plane would work or you could use something like Commune to enquire of a higher being how your grandpa is getting on.

How Do You Speak With The Departed

However, as I said I rule that the spell is not cast if the soul is unwilling, so theres no chance your spending BP on diddly squat.


Duke of Kardas, First Sword of Iomedae HP:51/76 AC:27 F:+14, R:+8, W:+12 CMD:23/24 P:-1 Init:+0 AOO:+16

I was thinking commune as well. Divination if worded correctly might give you a fairly good idea as well...


Your Humble Narrator

Great post Malthir, I approve of the pro-activeness :).

Dark Archive

No longer matters Drow Lich Epic level Wizard/Cleric of considerable ability

I was not citing the book and claiming canon to offer it as definitive proof, but rather that it might be indication of RAI(ntended) or at least the rulings of a Paizo employee. :)

That being said, I rescind my previous assertion. Suffice it to say that I now believe the inclusion of the word soul in the descriptor is an error, and that the spell does not allow communication with the soul itself. (And yes this reverts it to its 3.5 version) This is actually backed up by the novel, not the reverse as I had mis-claimed previously.

And I did a search, give me some credit. :P

Contact Other Plane and Commune, even if they allowed you to target a specific (lesser) entity (and that is reliant on DM ruling IMO) only allow for yes/no or other single word answers. While this may answer the do they wish to raised question, it hardly sounds like a way to pass along messages to loved ones from beyond the grave. Sending is more suitable in this case, but requires a ruling as to whether souls count as "creatures". :P

Anyhow, given the crux of the issue was with whether we risked losing our material component... and that has been answered, I am happy to move on. I'll deal with the rest in my home games. :)

I will just envision, that as part of spells like raise dead, there is an opportunity to communicate directly with the departed soul, to determine willingness and pass on any last wishes.

Cheers

PS TLDR? I know that as "too long didn't read", but the context seems wrong here. Another usage?


Your Humble Narrator

Its a TLDR for your benefit. If you just skim read my post etc. its meant as a brief summary for you.

I do feel the need to point out I had already made it clear (or so I thought :P) that you wouldn't be spending the material component in my post 9 posts up :).

Dark Archive

No longer matters Drow Lich Epic level Wizard/Cleric of considerable ability

Right. Got it. But just for the record I don't skim read posts. :)

I did see your ruling, both for Speak With Dead and Raise Dead, yes. My continued discussion was just for my interest. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I generally avoid the rules forums these days, preferring to talk about this stuff with people I know. :)

As always, I respect your rulings, and would never tell you how to run one of your games. :) If anything I said made it seem that way I apologize.

Cheers


Your Humble Narrator

No problem okoya, I just include tldr's when I feel i'm rambling :P.


On a further tangent, I've always thought there should be a spell that could return a soul to its body against its will. Maybe epic level, or just add an opposed check to an existing spell. Would explain what happened to Arazni.


Your Humble Narrator

Smells like Epic Level magic to me :). It is so nice to have you in our discussion thread without it being for tech support btw Joana ;).


Are you implying I enjoy your company even when there's no immediate benefits to myself? Because that might indicate an alignment shift is in order. ;)

Silver Crusade

So . . . did the +1/-1 modifier when the Hellknights came just represent an ad hoc "it makes sense" modifier? Or has Kardas now become a Lawful Good kingdom because of the Hellknights' influence as a power group and the Statkari's decision to support their presence?


Your Humble Narrator

It was just an ad hoc modifier. Kardas has not become Lawful Good, but the presence of the Hellknights brings greater stability to the realm at the cost of some deep worries of its loyal people.

Silver Crusade

Ah, thanks. Then Kardas still flirts with this "freedom" nonsense that Kip sometimes babbles about. ;-)

On the subject of laws--have the Statkari considered establishing some laws about dealing with the Fey? It might deter the Hellknights from killing them out of hand if they were formally recognized by the kingdom in some way. Just a thought . . . .


Your Humble Narrator

Definitely worth a thought...


hp 66/66, AC 26/17/20, CMD 23/24, F: +8, R: +11, W: +7, init: +5, per: +10 Human Bard 6/Fighter 2

We might want to expand that to cover all sentient creatures. Such as dragons and other native creatures of these areas. Of course, we need some provisions in place so obviously hostile or destructive creatures can be dealt with, but yeah, we might want to limit any impulses to hack and slash first and ask questions never. Makes diplomatic efforts kinda hard.

I think there is good president in both red-eye and the Sootscales. While both kobolds and worgs are commonly regarded as evil, these are some of Kardas most valuable allies.

Dark Archive

No longer matters Drow Lich Epic level Wizard/Cleric of considerable ability

Good to see the lurkers chiming in again. I have been missing that. :)

Sorry I haven't been posting a ton the last few days... have been really busy with work. Might have a slight case of sun stroke to boot. :P

I am also going away this weekend for some R&R... posting will continue to be sporadic until Monday. Sorry.

Eric Zylstra wrote:

Ah, thanks. Then Kardas still flirts with this "freedom" nonsense that Kip sometimes babbles about. ;-)

On the subject of laws--have the Statkari considered establishing some laws about dealing with the Fey? It might deter the Hellknights from killing them out of hand if they were formally recognized by the kingdom in some way. Just a thought...

Kip approves of this message. :)


As the semi-retired diplomacy and business-relations expert, I would highly advise against antagonizing any minority groups that might lead to loss of economic cooperation and civil unrest. Unruly and silly as they may be at times, internal strife is not conducive to wealth-building.

External strife, on the other hand, can be very lucrative.

*bows, and returns to laboratory*

Silver Crusade

Casimir wrote:

We might want to expand that to cover all sentient creatures. Such as dragons and other native creatures of these areas. Of course, we need some provisions in place so obviously hostile or destructive creatures can be dealt with, but yeah, we might want to limit any impulses to hack and slash first and ask questions never. Makes diplomatic efforts kinda hard.

I think there is good president in both red-eye and the Sootscales. While both kobolds and worgs are commonly regarded as evil, these are some of Kardas most valuable allies.

This seems like a great idea to me. Legal personhood for all creatures from races that in potential can recognize the concept of legal/moral obligation (and any magically altered individuals--like Red-Eyes--who also meet the criterion).

But at a minimum, establishing protections for the Fey seems like a priority since they might otherwise be killed on sight, provoking the Fey to general hostility that they will take out on Kardas settlers. The Hellknights probably won't like it, but you can point out that if the Statkari judged only by reputations rather than specific actions, their order would never have been allowed in the kingdom. (A bit more diplomatically than that, though.) Plus, they should save their strength for Galt, the larger source of Chaos. . . .


Duke of Kardas, First Sword of Iomedae HP:51/76 AC:27 F:+14, R:+8, W:+12 CMD:23/24 P:-1 Init:+0 AOO:+16

To Malthir the immigration policy pretty much sums it up. It already extended to all creatures except the ones referred to in the policy. So fey and dragons would already be protected. We can specify this though so there is no confusion.


Doesn't an "immigration policy" only apply to those creatures willing to give up their own ways of life and submit to the laws of Kardas? Leaving chaotic creatures who refuse to bow down to the people who have invaded their ancestral land as fair game for smiting?

Maybe you should set up fey reservations and then make them all pack up and move periodically when you decide you want to expand onto the land you previously told them they could have... :P


Can you guys locate where/how you first met Red Eyes? I want to include Howl of the North Wind as a pack leader of worgs, with a CN worg looking to supplant him as a potential NPC ally. (This may be precisely how you met RE.)

Also, AK, did you ever do Candlemere Island? I started reading right near the climax of Hargulka's siege.


Your Humble Narrator

Hey Barcas :), heh, Barator (ex-player in this PbP, had to bow out in the first year for personal reasons) was asking similar questions about Red Eyes, wanting to include him in his home game.

I think after a little foreshadowing, they first heard of Red Eyes here, after one of his wolves was left wounded after they took down a troll. Red Eyes had no interaction with Howl of the North Wind, a winter wolf in this game, as he was roaming the Kamelands while Red Eyes was consolidating the wolves of the Narlmarches (east as opposed to west, basically).

Its also worth noting that Red Eyes isn't exactly a worg. He's something of a unique creature really, although its possible he was born a worg. I think a CN worg looking to overthrow Howl is a great idea :).

Not done Candlemere... yet. I won't share my thoughts on what I plan to change up from the AP publicly but i'll happily discuss it over PM :). Best we don't discuss Candlemere further on this thread as the Guardians are in fact, planning to head there soon.

And hey Joana- they have respected the rights of both a mysterious dragon with a claim on the land as well as reluctantly leaving a Fey clearing the hell alone when asked. Don't be too harsh ;).


Pssh. That was before they had a Hellknight army. ;P

How much Law can you add to the balance in an ostensibly NG kingdom before it tips...? ;)

Dark Archive

No longer matters Drow Lich Epic level Wizard/Cleric of considerable ability

Sounds like Kip may need to become more radicalized... as opposed his current outlook of live and let live. ;)


Your Humble Narrator

Its only a small army ;). Clearly the next army Kardas raises needs to be a Chaotic band of Fey to balance it out :P.

Silver Crusade

Joana wrote:
Maybe you should set up fey reservations and then make them all pack up and move periodically when you decide you want to expand onto the land you previously told them they could have... :P

I think that the idea of recognizing small enclaves with some local control--like the dragon and the Bleuddwedd Queen's or however you spell it--actually does have merit. How else can you integrate them into Kardas? You're claiming the land around them, they are likely to resist integrating fully, and killing them out of hand is both Evil and difficult. And probably dumb in at least some cases.

The key would be to structure the balance of obligations so that it's more like federalism than "we'll give you this agreement as a placeholder until we're high enough level to kick you off the property." ;-)


Duke of Kardas, First Sword of Iomedae HP:51/76 AC:27 F:+14, R:+8, W:+12 CMD:23/24 P:-1 Init:+0 AOO:+16

Remember, until they have a legal agreement with Kardas, we don't formally recoginize their claims :)
It will be an interesting issue to be sure. Now that Malthir no longer trusts the fey in general, he is more likely to see this Fey clearing as a threat. He doesn't trust having a Dragon on his border either.
We will see what Fenna's commune brings.

Oh and by all means feel free to share your Candlemere plans, the Statkari would love to hear them...

Next army will be Kobold skimishers. They come in at night like ants hobbling horses, poisoning the food, stealing all of the enemies arrows...they could be pretty deadly...lol


Eric Zylstra wrote:
The key would be to structure the balance of obligations so that it's more like federalism than "we'll give you this agreement as a placeholder until we're high enough level to kick you off the property." ;-)

Sounds like the latter is exactly what Kardas has in mind.

Funny how the fact that some humanoids are evil and/or chaotic doesn't make Malthir assume they're all untrustworthy as a race. :P


Duke of Kardas, First Sword of Iomedae HP:51/76 AC:27 F:+14, R:+8, W:+12 CMD:23/24 P:-1 Init:+0 AOO:+16

Our Kobolds are not "evil"...or at least they don't act that way in front of Malthir!!!! They can take out their blood-thirst on our enemies anytime.

You are good until proven evil...unless you are a Fey...


HP: 49/60 AC: 22, T:13, FF:21, CMD:16. Fort:+5, Ref:+5, Will:+8(+7). Per:+14, Init:+0, AoO:+8

I think the point Joana's trying to make is the same one Fenna tried to make; just because there are hostile humans (such as Grigori,) doesn't mean Malthir automatically mistrusts all humans.

I guess it's our fault for trying to use subtlety with a paladin :P.

Silver Crusade

Malthir Al Dagon wrote:

Remember, until they have a legal agreement with Kardas, we don't formally recoginize their claims :)

You might not want to use that as your starting point for negotiations with the dragon.

Actually, even more than usual, I don't think that hardball negotiating tactics would work with a dragon. To a dragon, negotiating with a human is like you negotiating with a squirrel. Or a tasty-looking rabbit, if the dragon is evil.

I suggest "O mighty dragon, we recognize that you have control of this area of land within our land grant, the title of which we understand may postdate your claim. We'd like to structure our community's relationship with you in a way that prevents idiots from bothering you and getting killed." Guarantee the dragon's borders in return for a promise of mutual non-aggression and whatever other mutually beneficial provisions that you can wrangle.

Malthir Al Dagon wrote:
It will be an interesting issue to be sure. Now that Malthir no longer trusts the fey in general, he is more likely to see this Fey clearing as a threat.

It is possibly a threat. But Varnhold and the Hellknights are both possible threats too. You just have to determine how likely the possibility is and how to best deal with it.

More to the point, do you really want to have a kingdom where a class of intelligent creatures is outside of the law's protection because of their race? And not because they're often wicked, like kobolds, but because they're chaotic.

Malthir Al Dagon wrote:

He doesn't trust having a Dragon on his border either.

You don't want to sell livestock and luxury goods to the dragon? Also, a dragon is probably equivalent to a small army in itself. If you are good neighbors, you may convince the dragon that it's worth making sure that you're not replaced by bad neighbors. Especially if you add a generous per diem fee, plus a bonus for each enemy soldier killed. Or maybe milestone payments for each battle won.


Duke of Kardas, First Sword of Iomedae HP:51/76 AC:27 F:+14, R:+8, W:+12 CMD:23/24 P:-1 Init:+0 AOO:+16

That's assuming that the dragon isn't evil and just buying time to become more powerful so that it can wipe us off the map...

Malthir is fine with creating an alliance with the creature and even treating it with defference, as he would a king, but the agreement between parties should be two-way, offer protection and security to both. They are very powerful, but the smart ones know that they are not indestructible.

The Fey will be protected with everyone else, but in Malthir's mind he trusts them less and less with each encounter and the information they are gathering seems to indicate some larger plot by larger groups of them against Kardas...and don't worry he already doesn't trust humans as a group so it's not personal... :)


Your Humble Narrator

Dragons biding their times against adventurers is an ill advised move, unless they are hoping said adventurers will get wiped out by something else.

You gain levels. Poor dragons have to just wait until they hit their next age category.


HP: 49/60 AC: 22, T:13, FF:21, CMD:16. Fort:+5, Ref:+5, Will:+8(+7). Per:+14, Init:+0, AoO:+8

That could be a mere ten years away...

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