Since I'm at it, here's the text version:
Thank you for the text version. And that is some advice which Kalem does need about now.
As we move into the second act of the story I feel like I can finally get some proper character grow for Varor's character, as long as nobody does something like FEED PEOPLE TO SHARKS!
Why would your character growth depend on other character's choices? Our characters can't control the world around them.
Context:
The campaign started with the party all having a grudge against Gaedren Lamm. Several of our characters *really* wanted to kill him. Such as Kalem, as Gaedren had gotten his brother, and only family member, killed.
Varor was different. He was Gaedren's childhood friend. His character goal was to redeem Gaedren.
We captured Gaedren, who taunted us without mercy. We were discussing what to do with him, and Varor argued for taking him into custody.
Brin (who is no longer with us) killed Gaedren by feeding him to a shark. And rolled a nat 20 on his bluff check to make it look like an accident. (See gameplay page 10) He didn't read Varor's backstory, so he didn't know how important it was to Varor to keep him alive. He wanted to get to know everyone's characters organically, and the Lamm connection never came up.
------
That said, the best advice I ever got was "you can only control your own actions, not those of others." Character growth can happen even when the stories we plan get derailed.
And as we're on the topic, I think we should all agree that if something is really important to us, we should discuss it before hand and come to a group decision, so we don't have a repeat of the aforementioned event.
I read the story, and it makes sense that the character would be upset, but I don't understand as much the player. ... And I mean, Cressida Kroft really, really messed up something that was super important to my character (keeping her father a secret). Happens. I get that people like control, but when I was forbidden from doing something that gave a very small possibility of letting that guy you were torturing go... that restricts character freedom as well. How far are we willing to limit one character to make another character happy?
Right now my character wants to go and tell her thieves' guild contacts about the plague because they could organize and help more than a lot of other groups could. Sure, they would have a profit motive as a large part of their help, but it could help the city, which to her is way more important. She's not going to tell the group, because the group will go all preachy on her... but it amounts to the same thing if I have to get player permission to do it.
Let's say we both spent two hours working on our characters, one hour for the backstory and another hour for how we can develop our characters off that backstory.
Here's the difference between you and me. All of that work wasn't set on fire immediately, you can still work off of it. With Gaedren dead that entire avenue a progress and the time I spent thinking on how I could work it and what I could do if something unexpected happened went to waste.
Zamandas parents aren't dead. The Thieves Guild isn't dead. They haven't been completely removed from the game. That's the difference.
|
I agree that the fun part of the story is how it unfolds, and how our characters react to it.
I actually liked that Gaedren death scene on a lot of levels from a character standpoint, and even though Varor was upset at the death, it was a very real upset that made it have even more depth.
So I'm all for continued adventuring and seeing how our characters respond to the crazy twists and turns together.
Agreed, Ilsa. I have no idea what's going to happen with Pel's backstory. His progression may not be what I expect, but there will eventually be change, for better or for worse. Getting upset is just part and parcel with the game sometimes. We're always going to be at the mercy of the GM and other players to some degree, but that's a big part of what makes these things fun: not knowing what's going to happen next.
Decisions should always be made as a group, of course, but individual character actions are going to happen, whether we like it or not. It's okay not to agree with them, but I think we do have to accept that they happen. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree and accept things as they come at us.
I don't think the distinction matters from a story perspective. Not having people know that her father was a high government official changes everything about Zamanda's background and the way she can live. That secret is lost. It can't be recovered. She had to basically go to her father and admit that he was right and she was wrong, which the character as I designed it would NEVER do... so she had to have an overhaul on a very basic level. I wrote a scene about it that only made it to my character sheet just trying to get my head around it. ... Not one-upmanship about which was worse. Just saying it doesn't matter. We have to change on the fly and let things happen sometimes, and trying to control other characters or having to reveal things so the group can decide what we can do leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Out of curiosity, what would have been the character growth from redeeming Lamm? And hasn’t there been character growth from not being able to? It seems to me at least that the experience has embittered the elf and darkened his world view.
For Kalem he just wanted vengeance. Getting it lifted a weight off of his shoulders, but it wasn’t a real character growth moment. For him, character growth came from his torture scene, and from getting to know the other characters. They’ve influenced him into becoming a better person than he used to be.
Before any of you read this I want you all to know that I am having fun with this game and I do love our colorful cast of characters. And I understand that there is plenty of game left to go for me to work with. :-) With that said here's a long and negative rant, but I am glad I've gotten it off my chest. I feel better already actually. Now I need to go work on something for another campaign I'm in but before I do that, I'm hungry, so I'm going to go get some food.
Or.
He fails and Gaedren doesn't accept redemption and then Varor has to come to terms with the fact that, despite all of his good intentions, there are some people that he can't save and that he should focus on those that he can.
I know I'm ragging on and I'm sorry but the real kicker for me is that I haven't been able to do anything with this character death. The character who died isn't coming back because there's no point in reviving him or trying to save his soul after it's departed or anything like that. The character who actually killed him got away with it perfectly, so there was no inter-party conflict that I could build off of from that. And that player is now gone anyway. So if I could find a way to catch him later it's too late. And due to the fast pace that were telling the story I haven't had any time to set up a proper scenario for Varor to breathe, let alone grieve.
The GM added a son character for Gaedren but I say f*** that. I don't really care about him. Gaedren, The one who had the actual emotional connection to Varor, is dead. The son sounds like he's already worse then his father, and Varor only learned about him a few days ago. What I can do with that is playoff a "I owe it to your father" or "it's my job to try and save you" scenario. Without getting into backstory Varor has no reason to care about blood relations, no reason to value it at all. In fact he has more reason to spit at its supposed inherent value than anything.
I guess I'll just chime in to say I agree with Ilsa up above. You can't determine that there's going to be character evolution A or character evolution B for your character ahead of time. The game just isn't built to support that. The fun instead is in the character evolving more organically with the twists of the story and other player's input.
Not having people know that her father was a high government official changes everything about Zamanda's background and the way she can live. That secret is lost. It can't be recovered. She had to basically go to her father and admit that he was right and she was wrong, which the character as I designed it would NEVER do... so she had to have an overhaul on a very basic level.
Since this secret came out early, and we had no context on it as fellow players, I don't think we had any reason to do anything with the information. So hearing that the loss of that secret changed Zamanda's backstory and character idea is surprising. Do you think you could explain what your original intention with the character was? I'm kinda curious what we've been missing out on. :>
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do you think you could explain what your original intention with the character was?
I really don't think it matters at this point, but spoiler below to try to answer your question.
The original idea was for her to be more of a double-life type person, juggling her questionable activities while still looking squeaky clean on the outside. She has always been good on the inside, but she resented people thinking that because she is an Aasimar that she must automatically be lawful/good, and so she would rebel against that assumption... not in evil ways, but in very non-lawful ways. Her character was built around a good bluff, and her ability to squirm her way out of things and live that double life.
Her entrance to the story was getting caught in the wrong place for the right reasons, but since she never got a chance to talk her way out of it, or stop the revelation of her father, she didn't get the choice to still live her double life and keep shocking her parents with her big stories and her risk-filled life. She had to actually submit to Cressida, killing her rebellious spirit, and making her admit to the whole thing to her father, in case it came back to bite him (forced because protecting her family has always been at the core of who she is, even though they don't get along that well).
So, she had to adapt and basically give up the rebellious side... the side that was lighter, more carefree, ready to joke and laugh and try anything. The old Zamanda might have gone back to the boy who is in love with her at the Thieves Guild, or might have done other super-risky things, but now she is trapped between the law and her father. She's come to terms with it, and was pleased to find that Cressida actually was okay with them doing some gray area things, and that the group would listen to her opinion. Now that they are going more independent she feels like she can breathe a little, but that threat hangs over her head still... she can't risk the law or her father anymore. She has to be good, what is left is her determination to be her own kind of good.
She's still very different from the group, which seems mostly lawful neutral to her... talking about respecting the queen, and okay with torture. She's chaotic good. If the queen is doing bad things, then of course work against the queen. And who cares who they work with to fight this disease as long as we get a cure and find ways to prevent people from dying.
Anyway, I guess the TL;DR version is that she is a lot more serious and less carefree than she would have been. She's had to face disaster and sacrifice part of herself, and now she is trapped by responsibilities instead of more of an "eternally youthful" type character. Doesn't mean that this version isn't good or doesn't have room to grow and change though. And maybe this is better in some ways. I mean, this city is facing serious things. :)
I remember you being kind of upset at that at the time, Zamanda. Sorry. I probably should have realized it, but at the time the idea that anonymity was an important part of the long-term character concept (beyond just her background) went ride over my head
No worries. She's over it and back to solid. Just different. :)
Changing topics.
At lvl5 Kalem is going to do an Oracle dip. Lore Oracle will give him +4 AC, +4 Ref, +2 Will, lvl 0 spells and some lvl 1 Spells. That just seems worth it to me to have -1 BaB, -2 HP, and slower bloodrager progression.
That said, should I go Seeker or Dual Cursed?
Seeker gives me Trapfinding, something the party might find useful.
Dual Cursed gives everyone 1 re-roll a day, and I can make our enemies re-roll as well. This will cost me a Feat and a second curse.
What do you all think?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Traps seem to be our one big hole. Kalem should be our designated trap guy regardless of which one you decide. He can either disarm them with tools or walk through them. ;P
Dual cursed has some fun toys, but I've found them a little fiddly, especially in the PbP format (lots of if/then statements, and you're supposed to tell the DM you want to use the reroll after the enemy rolls but before you know if it hits/misses). It can just be a little hard to use based on my dual-cursed oracle.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I vote for “walk through the traps”. Always more entertaining from a GM’s perspective.
Less so entertaining from a player's perspective. : P
I agree with Ilsa. Without Quinn, we could use trapfinding. Kalem's a good one to do it, too, since even if he fails he's probably the most likely to survive whatever happens.
Alright Seeker it is at lvl5.
It fits his background pretty well too...he’s probably had to pick a lock or two? Plus the ‘disable magic traps’ would make sense with the burdgeoning Powers.
It will give him +8 disable traps, which goes up to +10 with Masterwork tools. That should be enough.
The weakness will be finding the traps, as he will only have +7 Perception. But I guess that is where walking through traps comes in.
In a F2F game, we had a powerplayer who had (very capable) built a min-maxed character that just cleaned up in a lot of fights. (Not knocking the play style, just setting context.) Character was hard to even touch. While exploring a dungeon, he says he’s going to open a certain door rather than take one of the other two paths. I confirmed, “You’re going to open that door?” Yes, that door he says without pausing.
Break out 15d6 fire damage. Suddenly he says, “I check the door for traps!!!” (Too late.)
I was very entertained. >:-)
I really don't think it matters at this point, but spoiler below to try to answer your question.
Cool! Thanks for explaining. It sounds like it would have been fun, though since we've been running this campaign pretty straight (ie. serious business, minimum lightheartedness) I guess the new Zamanda works well.
Also Kalem, I think the rest of us might be able to cover the perception part of things simply through redundancy (quite a few decent but not amazing perceptions) and Zamanda's perception is quite good.
Hey guys, I wanted to put this up earlier but working and easter family stuff kind of tied my hands so I didn't get to until now. I wanted to explain Varor's emotional outburst from my last couple of post.
I'm basically going for the young and overly moral thing, despite the way that I'm having Varor play it off he is young by elf standards, and I personally agree that not being paid for this cure is dumb, but I'm trying to get across the more moral but short sighted perspective for him.
Also did we transition to the next day or are we on the same day?
Same day.
Hey everyone, I'm headed out tomorrow on a family vacation and will be returning on the 10th. I may be able to post while I'm away, but I can't promise it, so please bot me if the need arises.
As a heads up, I'll be at PAX from today through Sunday and may have some inconsistent posting until Monday as a result.
Looks like it's going to be a slow weekend.
Perfect time for me to drop the meteor. >:-)
Oh your Second Darkness group failed?
That reference went right over my head. Is there a meteor in Second Darkness?
Twice actually.
Question: I've reorganized the Google Slide presentation to reduce the number of slides, delete some older ones, and consolidate some of the images. That said... How is everyone's experience with the Google Slides going? I realized with the volume of images that are getting loaded to it, some folks might be experiencing issues. I'm not but I'm not reliant as much on a mobile connection.
If, even after the organization I just did, folks experience long load times that are making it unwieldy, I may break things down into multiple slide presentations, perhaps one per chapter, or I can go back to making more use of the handouts Google drive for the images.
No issues here, but I don't play on mobile, so not sure I am the intended audience. :)
The new slide organization looks good and I'm not seeing any problems with load times personally. I kind of hate editing posts on mobile, so I generally wait until I'm back to my desktop to post in any case.
By the way, Mr. Davaulus sure looks like Nic Cage, doesn't he?
Quite a bit. And perhaps from Face/Off, because there are two portraits of him in the book and they look very different from one another. Went with the older, more "doctor-y" one.
Will have a proper update for y'all later today or tomorrow. Colleague is traveling so I'm covering for payroll in addition to a project start and my old project, so... soon! I promise.
I’m laughing how the party is all going “oh no! The queen is evil!” While Kalem is being happily optimistic about the whole thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah it doesn't really help that the AP doesn't even try to be subtle about it.
I mean, they try. But the shift from not supposed to be evil to the antagonist of the campaign is as subtle as a car wreck. I mean it's more obvious to us because we've been doing really well in the campaign and that's kind of supposed to be the reward for doing well, But the hardcover edition is somehow less subtle then the original.
The first time you meet the Queen she's supposed to be veiled and sad but the new artwork actually makes it even more obvious that she's evil. How did a hardcover of an adventure path manage to downgrade something!
...The point I'm trying to make is that Kalem is the most trusting member of this party and that's concerning me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I never played the original edition so I couldn't opine on that, but maybe it isn't meant to really be a secret out of character? How many movies are there where we're screaming in our heads, "Don't trust them!" but the protagonists still do? I appreciate y'all are keeping the doubt on a leash, though, and waiting for hard evidence.
Just got back from vacation. About to catch up on posts. As for your question about slides, GM, I think they're great. That's what I use for the couple campaigns I run. They sometimes take a few seconds to load, but google slides is definitely my preferred method for maps.
I mostly use them on PC, but I can confirm they load fine on mobile. Like you said, Bashiel, updating on mobile can be a pain, but I think that's going to be the case regardless of what kind of maps we use.
And the queen is bad? I don't know what you're talking about. ; )
Ah, fair, Ilsa. Sorry. I imagine most people don't know any details but are making assumptions based on themes and the AP's marketing, but let's do drop any future discussion of this in spoiler boxes. Call it something like "OOC Plot Speculation".
Varor, just as a heads up, I’m going to try to post something for you as you roam the streets of Korvosa. This is taking a little while to resolve and I’d like you to have at least something plot-related to engage with. This is kind of why I hate splitting parties, though. There’s a big risk of missing out on stuff.
|
|
Ah, fair, Ilsa. Sorry. I imagine most people don't know any details but are making assumptions based on themes and the AP's marketing, but let's do drop any future discussion of this in spoiler boxes. Call it something like "OOC Plot Speculation".
Yeah, it's not a huge stretch to think the Queen might be an antagonist with the recent attempt to execute a scapegoat, but at the same time I'm not certain if she's been misinformed by someone or made a mistake.
So when we're talking about the Queen being all-caps EVIL, that's not something I knew in-character or otherwise. I'm just hoping to play this without spoilers and it seems some of the others might have more information than I have, which I'd like to avoid.
I haven't even looked at the AP's marketing! :)
Ah, fair, Ilsa. Sorry. I imagine most people don't know any details but are making assumptions based on themes and the AP's marketing, but let's do drop any future discussion of this in spoiler boxes. Call it something like "OOC Plot Speculation".Yeah, it's not a huge stretch to think the Queen might be an antagonist with the recent attempt to execute a scapegoat, but at the same time I'm not certain if she's been misinformed by someone or made a mistake.
So when we're talking about the Queen being all-caps EVIL, that's not something I knew in-character or otherwise. I'm just hoping to play this without spoilers and it seems some of the others might have more information than I have, which I'd like to avoid.
I haven't even looked at the AP's marketing! :)
This is where I'm at as well. While it is fairly obvious from a story perspective that she is the antagonist...
(1) Nobles consolidate power all the time, especially new rulers with shaky foundations for rulership
(2) I would have to imagine that scapegoats are fairly common as well. Having someone be executed to keep public order is Machiavellian. It isn't "OMG DEVIL WORSHIPER." At worst, it would make her be on the same moral footing as most of the crime lords and gangs that Kalem grew up around. Which isn't very high...but which also isn't out of the ordinary. You know, just better dressed.
Put the two together, and while Kalem wouldn't think that she is a paladin, he would pretty much see her as being par for course.
Because of this, I'm *really* trying to hold off on the suspicion on wrongdoing which goes beyond normal political maneuvering. The queen hasn't done anything yet, which I can see, which would make us believe that IC she is behind the plague or anything of the sort.
If anything, a ruler who is new to the throne and is trying to ensure a sound foundation, would logically do everything in her power to publicly stop the plague.
If we assume that she is like Machiavelli (lawful evil), then she will (a) get all of her cruelty out of the way as quickly as possible, doing as much harm to her enemies as she can while avoiding harming those who are neutral, and (b) will follow up this cruelty with kindness to those who are not her enemies. This would include treating the plague so everyone remembers her for that...while having in the back of her mind not to cross her.
That would be the smart political option for her. And until something comes up IC, Kalem will be assuming the above.
I just want to be clear... Zamanda is anti-queen for in-game reasons. Her father thinks that the rumors that she killed the king, her husband, are true, and so does Zamanda. They aren't in agreement about how she should live her life, but she trusts him on politics, because he is the one in the government. She also has been willing to kill innocents for her political agenda, which we have personally witnessed.
Oh okay, I see where I went wrong. I assume that we all least seen the cover of the hardcover. I guess I just found it difficult to believe that someone was actually going in to this AP with absolute zero knowledge of it. My bad.
As for in character stuff, I honestly thought I was just at the temple doing my clerical duties. And then once I exhausted that for the day, if I had time, I'd go to our new home base and just start cleaning.
Ah, fair, Ilsa. Sorry. I imagine most people don't know any details but are making assumptions based on themes and the AP's marketing, but let's do drop any future discussion of this in spoiler boxes. Call it something like "OOC Plot Speculation".
Less themes and marketing and more...
There are plenty of reasons to be suspicious in character as well. From the creation of a secret police to executing scapegoats in order to provide an example for potential dissenters. Like Kalem points out, this is Lawful Evil behavior, and therefore more than enough for Bashiel to be wary.
Yeah, GM Snowheart's cover image on the slides makes it pretty clear the Queen is an antagonist in the story, which I think is fine.
Personally, I think the expiration on that particular spoiler has long since come and gone. It's been about 10 years since the AP was first released. Besides, knowing the the Queen can't be trusted/is evil doesn't preclude plenty of other twists, turns, and surprises in the plot.