Call Forth Darkness (Inactive)

Game Master Aku Warashi

Thoughts on magic items

I think the big problem with magic items, and shopping in general, is that there is an expectation (especially from older players) that magic items should be rare, mysterious and special.

That idea is completely absent from the rules of this game. Pathfinder treats magic items much the same way the modern world treats various technological conveniences. The standard economic rules list cities with purchase limits of "anything up to X gp" where X is measured in thousands.

That means the idea of Magic Mart really is built into the rules of the game. In most towns it is assumed that somewhere in town there is a person who will sell you any low cost magic item in the game. There are racks of strength belts and charisma headbands. +1 swords are sold in basic smitheries. Magic items aren't really all that magical.

The game treats magic items as ubiquitously as our world treats electronics.

In fact, it is so ubiquitous that the idea of "the big 6" magic items are now considered essentials. If you don't have them, past a certain point you can't even really play anymore. After a certain level, if you don't have items that boost attacks, damage, saves, natural armor, and primary and secondary ability scores, your character will not be able to reasonably contribute to the game and will actually become a liability to the party. Depending on the class, that "magic item dependance point" can happen as early as 5th level. It happens to every class by 10th level.

I don't like that.

Characters should be defined by what they can do themselves, not by their equipment. Gear should be fairly inconsequential outside of a few signature items that help define a character (like Captain America's shield or King Arthur's sword)

I much prefer magic items to be rare and interesting, and I hate that my "magic item slots" are essentially predestined to be taken up by boring b#*~@#!! just so I can keep playing. (martials have it particularly bad in this regard. gear dependance is a big problem for anyone that swings a weapon)

There are a lot of house rules that attempt to address this problem, but because of how integrated the treasure, crafting and challenge rating systems are implementing them becomes difficult.

If you're interested, the best "anti-big-six" system I've ever seen is this one (in the 'important house rule' spoiler). It is super simple and especially great for games like dungeon crawls where there isn't a lot of opportunity for shopping.

Not really, I don’t want to ‘force’ less magic knowledge.
I’m saying that outside the Core Rule Book the item does not exists.

See the difference?
This in no way means you are forbidden to get any magic item you want, they are available in the books, and you should have access to it.

The difference is: player knowledge about items is not the same as the character knowledge.

For the character, living in the game world, even if he is a walking encyclopedia, that knowledge simply does not exist for him, which makes it your argument invalid.
The idea for an item, should come from a game situation, because if you think about this, you cannot ‘imagine’ an item that allows you to carry more things, if carrying was never an issue for you.

It’s the same thing with technology: Something get’s invented because someone had trouble doing something. Your logic assumes that every character, has an ‘innate’ knowledge about what magic is able to do, its application and that every character already has a huge experience with different situations, which would make him think about how magic could help him in every possible way…

… Only, that experience and knowledge never appears in the game, which says that you are giving your character, the player knowledge and experience.

Why would one want a scarab of golembane, think that said item exists, if he never had any trouble with Golems? (Which is not the case in this game, since you took a pretty bad beating to the ice golem, which totally justify Rose wanting to avoid the same situation in the future.)

See what I mean?
--

Every house rule I created, was meant to ‘encourage’ the players to interact and role play in the world. I don’t have any complaints about it most of the time.

I’ve read some amazing things this grouped created, but the ‘standardized’ widespread magic knowledge, for characters that supposedly shouldn’t have it, still bothers me.

Since you ninja'ed me...

Loved that post. Simply everything I was trying to say, only written way better than I could possible do. :)

Edit: I often use 'you' to describe something, but it in no way means I'm directing it just to one person, in this case Rose, that's talking with me about this subject. Mostly I’m talking about RPG community in general.

shenanigans - definitions and thesaurus

Silly behaviour: antics, frivolity, crank, stunt, shenanigans, brainstorm, aberration, tomfoolery, buffoonery

Cheating, dishonest and insincere behaviour: dishonesty, deceit, corruption, deception, smoke and mirrors, foul play, misconduct, guile, duplicity, double-dealing

Ouch, not quite what you were trying to say, I guess. :D

Edit:

Or maybe, you were just calling me a insincere, dishonest, deceitful, buffoon, aberration kind of person...

Immago cry a bit... </3

First she says I'm an aberration...

Now she calls me old.

:(

</3

The idea for an item, should come from a game situation, because if you think about this, you cannot ‘imagine’ an item that allows you to carry more things, if carrying was never an issue for you.

I agree with you in principal, but you kinda lose me here.

Ideas spread.

PCs are special, but they aren't the only people in the world. At some point someone must have gone "I wish I could carry more. Hey Mr. Wizard, how hard would it be to make a magic item thingy that would let me carry more stuff." and then the wizard would have thought about it for a few minutes and said "Pretty easy actually, i think I can whip that up in about 4 hours."

And then it would catch on like wildfire because it is cheap and extremely useful. Every logging baron, teamster boss and plantation owner would have a dozen of them. Every wagon master would build them into harnesses of their horses. Every standing army would issue them to their soldiers.

They'd pay for themselves in labor efficiency in a matter of weeks. Heck, for what they do they should be way more expensive than a magic sword. Not every many people need magic swords. Everyone could use a pair of muleback cords.

The only reason I can think of that they would be so cheap is because the first person to start making them got rich really fast, and then every magic crafter in the world started cranking them out, which flooded the market and drove the price down.

Anything that is incredibly useful, cheap, and easy to make would never remain unknown.

This is all mostly world-crafting theory stuff that I'm bringing up for the sake of discussion, not because I'm trying to change things in this game. I love these kinds of discussions. They help bring worlds to life in believable and interesting ways.

DM Aku wrote:

shenanigans - definitions and thesaurus

Silly behaviour: antics, frivolity, crank, stunt, shenanigans, brainstorm, aberration, tomfoolery, buffoonery

Cheating, dishonest and insincere behaviour: dishonesty, deceit, corruption, deception, smoke and mirrors, foul play, misconduct, guile, duplicity, double-dealing

Ouch, not quite what you were trying to say, I guess. :D

Edit:

Or maybe, you were just calling me a insincere, dishonest, deceitful, buffoon, aberration kind of person...

Immago cry a bit... </3

First she says I'm an aberration...

Now she calls me old.

:(

</3

I'm old too. We can be cranky on our lawns together.

For our purposes, I think we can use the situation exactly the way you intend. All you have to do is say "The tree's too big to move" and I'll say "if only there were a way to make ourselves stronger" and we'll pan the camera over to Nahia's crafting montage.

Then the item has a story-driven purpose for existing.

Ouch, posted in gameplay, but deleted.

Got lost in my own description.

@mysty
Yeah, pretty much.

How the horn looks like. See the trees? The tower is among them. (Not in this particular picture.)

I love the over complication at trying to move the tree... it provided a good chuckle as I imagine everyone playing tug of war and losing with an oak tree, and a lot of talk about magic items.

Anyways, Seren's plan => Animate Treant into Fast Zombie, (requires casting of desecrate to make it work. Cost: 650 GP) still stuck by huge wodden log. Would be awesome as a bloody skeleton but I can't wrap my head around a treant skeleton so nope plus animate dead specifically mentions

The corpse must have bones

So not going to do it.

For a zombie the corpse only has to be mostly intact... Big tree likely warped our treant a bit, but nothing a couple of hits of ISW can't mend after the tree is out of the way I'm sure.

Then Seren is going to go buy a standard Wood axe big enough for Grumblejack/Mr. Tree-Ant to use (so like what 30-50 GP maybe, Thinking a greataxe wielded one handed maybe? Not going to hold much weight to the possibility of large or larger weapons/wood axes being available in town), possibly get a replacement one as well cause it's an oak tree and that s!~~ is hard to chop through. Buy a good solid wood saw as well to cut the tree , which I'm sure is available in town (likely most of the town is built from this forest, a forest old enough for treants to be made, so likely big trees) -> total cost: maybe 50 GP.

Then Seren is going to sit on a stump or a comfortable patch of this new jungle we find ourselves in and watch him chop the tree to death until the Treant can get an arm free, it's 5 feet wide so it'll take a while but, the treant isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Praise Grumblejack endlessly and buy some amazing dinners for the pair of us from a local butcher in town in reward for all the hard work.

Hand Mr. Tree-Ant the axe, and say have fun get yourself out while basking in my awesome new minion. It can chop away night and day at a huge str score. Take maybe 2 days to chop itself out from under the tree being extremely conservative? It's undead so it doesn't get tired, doesn't get bored, just chop chop chop for hours on end.

Aku see any issues with my plan before I post it to gameplay?

Forgot getting the Muleback cords. Will work that on my sheet.

@Rose

See? We like to complicate things, when the dammed tree could just be chopped off.

'-'

Facepalm.

@the magic item thing,

I think part of the problem is that the game kind of treats knowledge stuff as kind of a retroactive thing, where you didn't really know something until you roll the dice for it.

It reminds me of a DM who was complaining on these forums that his player wanted to sit down with him and roll a knowledge check for every monster in the Bestiary to see what he knew. On the one hand, this concept makes some sense. On the other hand, it's so tedious that it is no wonder we abstract it away.

Basically, the way the game deals with 'information' is not really how people deal with 'information'.

I think some items are fairly easy to move from one to the other. For example, if I can make a belt of strength, then it isn't a stretch to make a belt of dexterity. I don't think it is that much of a stretch to come up with an idea to make something that only increases carrying capacity.

At the same time, we have a handy haversack (a storage device) and the pathfinder pouch (a storage device that is not detectable as a magic item). I don't think that being able to make a handy haversack would necessarily inspire a pathfinder pouch.

If it would help, I'm all for requiring a crafter to make some kind of 'inspiration' check, to either come up with the idea from scratch, or to be able to research how to do it.

@Auk
I'm going to take that as an approval of my plan. Going to write it up as such then, but waiting to see if anything comes from Mysty's actions before I monologue getting the axes, etc.

I'll wait Seren before moving you back into the City.

alright. I'll write it up today. Though I can write it up in a spoiler tag so we can keep everything moving, as it really shouldn't affect anything beyond the fact I'll be gone to deal with it. Just assume I'm gone with grumble for a day to deal with this, and I come back with a giant Fast Treant Zombie.

Was more concerned if Mysty's scouting caused something that would hinder my ability to come and deal with extracting my new minion.

How would counterfeiting money work mechanically?

EDIT: Just did a little digging. Looks like the best way of handling it is with the Profession skill. (Profession: Counterfeiter)

Simple, and clever. Great way yo maintain the mechanical balance of the game and still play with the idea of artificially creating your own money (and slowly destabilizing the Mitran economy).

Not sure if I'm actually going to do it, on account of not having enough skill points already, but its a neat thing to think about.

Actually making fake cash in a coin society has many problems. First many kingdoms would mill their coins edges, meaning you had to duplicate that. Another problem is to find a cheap metal that looks like gold. Brass can do that, but is is alot lighter than gold. And there is little point in make fake coins made of actual gold. Often the coins would have a lead plug core. And brass is harder than gold. This is why once upon a time, people would bite gold coins to see if they were real.

Still it needs a forge and time to make worthwhile amounts. Then you have to distribute it.

But it can be done.

One major problem. You are destroying the value of currency, ie the money we have. The Cardinal may have a problem with that. Better check on that.

On another point.
Aku, from time to time you get a bit cranky with us when we forget some of the house rules you have given. It might be helpful if these were linked in the campaign description so we don't have to goes through hundreds of posts to find them. I don't know the shopping rules you want us to follow, and I don't want to upset you, running a game is hassle enough for you. And there are other rules, like when to roll skills and when not to.

If these were linked above, then we can easily reference them.

just a thought

Oh if you want to see problems of shop owners in the magical world. Wealth can come out of no where.
OOS link

BTW highly recommend Order of the stick, and Darths and Droids while i'm at it.

sorry work has been crazy, and I want my post about raising my awesome new minion to be more then a little blurb.

Seren is only going to be picking up the supplies I mentioned to cut up the log, plus to provide a weapon for Grumblejack.

Question on the Weapon for rest of party: Reg, MWK, or +1 Earthbreaker for Grumble? Anything more then a regular earthbreaker and Seren is going to have to start utilizing some of the party funds to help with the material costs.

A +1 weapon in his hands will go a long way when facing things with DR/Magic

I agree with the +1, and I, personally, don't see a problem with using party funds for it.

@All

Sorry for taking that long to answer.
I'll update in some hours.

Hey, if you have already answered this seren, ignore me, but can you fix my rapier +1? My character did ask in the game, but i think it has been lost a bit. Ta in advance.

ya that won't be an issue, add half a day to my time. So I'm going to need 2 full days to get everything that I need to do done. I'll fix up your rapier before starting on Grumble's Earthbreaker. going to be a big post lol. going to write it over the course of the day and i'll post hopefully later in the day.

Aku, what is the availability of a large Earthbreaker in this city? Would I need to go to a black market to find something like that here?

@Seren

Easiest way is to repair grumble lost one. Then transform it into masterwork, and then enchant.

I'm not sure if it already was masterwork.

ya, just more expensive to do it that way.

Since it's a large Earthbreaker the weight of the weapon disqualifies me using mending to repair it, and I don't have any points in craft weapons to manually do it. So I actually have to use Make Whole (which I don't know) to do it. So going to cost

MW: 5d6 ⇒ (3, 4, 5, 3, 2) = 17
MW: 5d6 ⇒ (3, 2, 3, 6, 1) = 15

300 GP for the scrolls to repair it back to full health + 150 GP for the scroll of masterwork transformation + 300 GP in material cost for the actual masterwork transformation + 1000 GP to then boost it to +1 So total Cost:

1750 GP to make his current weapon +1.

Versus

1380 to just buy a new Large Masterwork one and then enchant it.

on the plus side: researching that led me to realize that Mysty's rapier should be easily repaired with a scroll of Make Whole a savings of 350 GP over using craft magic arms and armor and only 10 minutes instead of half a day!

Would almost be worth Nahia making me a page of Spell Knowledge: Make Whole for 2000 GP just so I know it from now on.... though I don't think she could reliably beat the crafting requirement DC of 32.

Can we get one of the Baron's people to craft a new haft? We're really just talking about an oversized axe haft. Not exactly intricate or expensive work.

Let's not complicate things.

30% chance you'll find a large Earthbreaker.

Else, it's the normal price to repair the weapon.

Find Large Earthbreaker - Low Good: 1d100 ⇒ 67

whelp guess no Large Earthbreaker. Okay scrolls it is, and not just assuming the haft is broken. Grumblejacks weapon was over killed by a huge margin, something like that probably means the head was cracked as well not just the haft. plus bringing it to a local blacksmith may raise a couple of questions as to what would require a weapon of this size.

So total Cost:
1750 GP for Grumble's Earthbreaker
150 GP for Mysty's weapon to mend it back to +1 (which mending can't do).
100 GP for additional Onyx (Going under the assumption that creating a fast zombie doubles the HD requirement even though the spell animate dead doesn't explicitly states as such)
50 GP - Silver dust for Desecrate Circle

So total cost 2050 GP.

.

Since mine wasn't magic, I assume I can find a craftsman in town who can repair it?

@Rose

Sure.

@All

Also, for everyone else, Happy DM's day. :)

@Seren, yeah, DC 32 is still just out of my range. The best I can do right now is 30. But how did you get 32? As far as I can tell the DC is 17 + 5 + 5 = 27.

That said, I've also always argued that progressional items (like Pearls of Power and the Pages of Spell Knowledge) should have progressional DCs based on minimum casting level (CL1 for a first level, CL 3 for a second, etc).

Of course, all of that is up to the DM. : )

@DM Aku, huh, I didn't know there was a DM's Day. Happy DM's Day!

@Seren

What's the maximum HD you can create, in the optimal scenario?

On another point.

Aku, from time to time you get a bit cranky with us when we forget some of the house rules you have given. It might be helpful if these were linked in the campaign description so we don't have to goes through hundreds of posts to find them. I don't know the shopping rules you want us to follow, and I don't want to upset you, running a game is hassle enough for you. And there are other rules, like when to roll skills and when not to.

If these were linked above, then we can easily reference them.

just a thought

Sorry about that. I had it on the other campaign, but I forgot to move here.

Check the campaign tab. I've added it there.

Thanks for reminding me.

Optimal amount I can create at once is 28 HD with animate dead + Desecrate.

and you are correct on the DC. added an extra 5 for some reason.

@Rose. Mending can repair your warhammer. it's light enough to be under the required weight for mending (6lbs at my current CL). it would be a simple thing for Seren to repair it.

@Rose. Mending can repair your warhammer. it's light enough to be under the required weight for mending (6lbs at my current CL). it would be a simple thing for Seren to repair it.

Nahia also already offered to, when we were heading back to town.

@Rose. Mending can repair your warhammer. it's light enough to be under the required weight for mending (6lbs at my current CL). it would be a simple thing for Seren to repair it.

Oh, sweet!

For some reason I thought it wasn't eligible. Mending can fix bitter stuff than I realized.

Since it was never addressed in game, can we just assume that I left my weapon with you two?

@Rose

Party funds has a considerable amount. Maybe Hound can borrow some money and pay in the next loot sharing.

@Rose

Party funds has a considerable amount. Maybe Hound can borrow some money and pay in the next loot sharing.

I'm in favor of this.

riding around on the shoulders of a giant dead Tree.

If you hollow out the top a little, or just nail down a platform with tower shields forming a box to sit in, you'd essentially have yourself a little mobile siege tower complete with high ground and cover from anything that isn't above you.

Maybe we need to animate a few skeleton archers?

Or put a ballista on top of it?

So many cool options for an undead treant.

DM Aku wrote:

@Rose

Party funds has a considerable amount. Maybe Hound can borrow some money and pay in the next loot sharing.

I'm in favor of this.

Neither a borrower nor a lender be

That entire monologue was delivered by a guy who's entire character can be summed up as "long winded old man who thinks he's way smarter than he actually is."

I prefer this-

...as I am a soldier,
A name that in my thoughts becomes me best,
If I begin the battery once again,
I will not leave the half-achieved Harfleur
Till in her ashes she lie buried.

What say you? will you yield, and this avoid,
Or, guilty in defence, be thus destroy'd?

Wo! Shakespeare.

How about this one.

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away".

Did we make a decision about that great sword?

@Rose

I don't think so.

Hey gang!

I know that none of you need it, but here is something really cool and interesting to read! Give it some attention, I know you’ll find it interesting too!
Advanced Play-by-Post Play

Also...

@Rose

Never said it, but thanks for that newbie PBP guide. :P

I used it a lot, when I stated DM'ing here, last year.

Glad it was able to help you. PbP games can have a pretty steep learning curve. The things that make them successful are a lot different than a standard tabletop game.

Painlord's guide is fantastic. I'm a big fan.