Buckle Your Swashes (Inactive)

Game Master Brian Minhinnick


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Hey y'all. I've invited you all here because I am considering running a game starting in the somewhat near future (whenever some of my other games finish up) to test out a set of houserules I'm calling PFRPG Heroes Mod. I respect all of you as PBPers and hope you'd like to take part.

Right now I'm leaning towards Razor Coast as the adventure path. I want to do something swashbucklery/piratey/Age of Sailish, but Crusty has already done S&S and Dien mentioned not digging it.

Here are the houserules, not quite finished yet, but definitely enough to give you the idea: PFRPG Heroes Mod

If you're not familiar with Razor Coast, it's an AP by Frog God Games. It's somewhat sandboxy, set in a tropical volcanic island colony where foreigners are trying to extract riches from the dangerous locale. The town of Port Shaw is like a very Mos Eisley/Freeport/Tortuga kind of place.

Is this interesting? Are people down?


In


I'm definitely interested as well. I like the idea of an Int-based Divine Hero.


Certainly curious!

I'll give the rules a good read when I've got more time. I suspect there'll be a lot of rough patches in a conversion like this...but you're a good enough DM to make it worthwhile.

Some initial thoughts:
I like the character build space this opens up!

Armor as DR -- Iron heroes did this (leather=1d2, studded=1d3, chain=1d4, scale=1d6, plate=1d8) with some feats that could increase the DR. It seemed interesting at low levels but at higher levels the DR just wasn't relevant vs the # of damage being dealt. The consensus was that IH v2 would most likely go back to Armor granting AC.

Here's a port from Vancian >> mana pool that I've used and liked (written by a friend/DM). Haven't looked at yours yet so not sure where they're similar/different.

Feats for abilities...I think some of those'll be super powerful for feats, and a few may be underwhelming. I wonder if "feat" is too low res a unit (e.g. if you'll end up wanting to do a point buy, where the average feat is worth 5 pts, but some cost more/less.


gyrfalcon wrote:

Certainly curious!

I'll give the rules a good read when I've got more time. I suspect there'll be a lot of rough patches in a conversion like this...but you're a good enough DM to make it worthwhile.

Some initial thoughts:
I like the character build space this opens up!

Armor as DR -- Iron heroes did this (leather=1d2, studded=1d3, chain=1d4, scale=1d6, plate=1d8) with some feats that could increase the DR. It seemed interesting at low levels but at higher levels the DR just wasn't relevant vs the # of damage being dealt. The consensus was that IH v2 would most likely go back to Armor granting AC.

Here's a port from Vancian >> mana pool that I've used and liked (written by a friend/DM). Haven't looked at yours yet so not sure where they're similar/different.

Feats for abilities...I think some of those'll be super powerful for feats, and a few may be underwhelming. I wonder if "feat" is too low res a unit (e.g. if you'll end up wanting to do a point buy, where the average feat is worth 5 pts, but some cost more/less.

I've played with armor as DR before, and I think my rules fix most of the problems I had with it then. Since we're capped at 10th level, and we're using Defense not AC, it should work. You are encouraged to not wear armor if you don't want to get hit, but armor as DR allows for a low dex tanky type.

Magic system, I'm pretty set on trying mine.

Feats for abilities, definitely powerful. But, they are pre-reqed in such a way (especially the more powerful ones) that they should lock you into some kind of "path" for lack of a better word. For example, many of the powerful level scaling ones can only be taken at level 1.

This is where I need the most feedback and playtesting, because it's the least predictable.


Thron wrote:
In

One word? That's great. But some discussion would be cool :P

Trying to get feedback on what you guys want, don't want, etc. Looking to go with majority here. I'm also open to changing some of the houserules if people don't like them.


BTW, Razor Coast works well for me. Might try to make a swashbuckling cleric of Besmara... Or who knows.

I haven't tried to stat out a traditional class yet. Have you? I'd guess that lots of people will take things like smite evil and hexes and wild shape and nature bond and very few will take wild empathy or or resist nature's lure or jack of all trades.

Just guessing here since I haven't experimented with builds but I'd suspect that the average build will be much more powerful since there's such a big difference in power between various class abilities and we can skip the weak and pick the best of several classes.

BTW, not clear to me which scale over time. Looks like channel, bomb, and sneak attack only scale if you keep spending feats. Weapon master and favored enemy mention that you get a new one is you spend a feat... But does the original one increase in power by level or only if you spend more feats? Does a range style give feats at 2nd and 6th levels?

In terms of balance, channel 5d6 takes 5 feats where lay on hands 5d6 looks like it takes only 1 feat... But that's just one example of many, I suspect.

If your goal is more interesting builds then all of that may be fine... But if you're going for balanced builds i think it'll be tough to accomplish.


Ooooh, or maybe I'll try to revive Samir, the Golden Jackal...he really deserved a chance to play.

You starting us at 1st level?


Razor Coast runs 5th-10th level. Then there's another adventure after it set in the same world that might take you to 11th..haven't read it yet, so not sure.


gyrfalcon wrote:

BTW, not clear to me which scale over time. Looks like channel, bomb, and sneak attack only scale if you keep spending feats. Weapon master and favored enemy mention that you get a new one is you spend a feat... But does the original one increase in power by level or only if you spend more feats? Does a range style give feats at 2nd and 6th levels?

In terms of balance, channel 5d6 takes 5 feats where lay on hands 5d6 looks like it takes only 1 feat... But that's just one example of many, I suspect.

Yeah, that's where I need the editorial help. I guess I should choose either everything that scales with level needs feats, or everything doesn't. As it is now, you have it right. Ranger style gives feats at those levels, but you're paying a "benefitless" feat at second level for them (Edit:That makes no sense, nevermind). Favored enemy would get better with level, but you'd never have more than one if you didn't take the feat again. Weapon master, same thing.

Do you think I should make everything require feats to scale? That would down the power level a bunch.

I don't really care about balance that much. The game is hideously unbalanced as it is already. Summoner>Zen Archer>Alchemist>Witch>Barbarian/Bloodrager>Wizard>everythin g else (or something like that anyway).


Let's make an example, a 5th level martial hero. Human for the extra feat. He wants to be like a barbarian/ranger type.

Human:Power Attack
1st:Rage
Bonus:Furious Focus
2nd (Bonus):Combat Style (Archery, Precise Shot)
3rd: Extra Rage
4th (Bonus): Favored Enemy (humans)
5th: Reckless Rage

Now lets take a traditional PF character going for the same thing...

1st:Barb - Power Attack
Human:Furious Focus
2nd:Ranger
3rd:Ranger - Combat Style (Archery, Precise Shot), Extra Rage
4th:Barb
5th:Barb - Reckless Rage

So....the traditional character has the same feats (except extra rage), and MORE class features than my Hero Mod character (way more). Is the Hero Mod character really more powerful? Or less balanced?


Dotty dot dotter dot!


I suppose I should mention...these rules are an evolution of something I tried once before. The very first PBP I ever GMed used some rules very similar to these.

Here it is if you want to check that out.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Checking in, still really need to read the rules thoroughly, but interested.

Lantern Lodge

Let me give the rules a read through.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

So, if I'm reading correctly, only spells from the sorc/wizard, witch, cleric, and druid class lists are allowed. If so, you'll cut out a number of spells, such as litany of sloth (available only to paladins, antipaladins, and inquisitors), bladed dash (bard, magus), tireless pursuit (inquisitor, ranger), saving finale (bard only), etc., etc.

Many other spells are available to certain classes at lower levels, but are higher level spells when restricted to only the spell lists in question-- hollow blades (ranger 1, S/W/Witch 3); hideous laughter (bard 1, SWW 2), tongues (bard/inquis 2, SWW 3, cleric 4) and so forth and so forth.

None of these spells in particular are ones I think are 'the best' in the game, but they're also just off the top of my head for purposes of example. Is it the intent of the system to remove some class-specific spells, or to delay access to some spells?


I did that on purpose. I want this to be a less magical world. Or at least a less varied magical world.

All arcane casters have a spell book for example, though the rest of their particulars might differ pretty widely.

I picked those spell lists, because they are the only full 9 spell level spellcasting classes. If there were some spell you really wanted for your character from another spell list, I'm sure we could work something out.


HP: 40/40; Rage 11/12
Stats:
AC 18, T 12, FF 17 // Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +2 // CMD 18

Just so people can start thinking about character ideas, the creation rules I'm going with are:

  • 15 point buy
  • 5th level
  • Core Races + Races from the Freebooter's Guide to the Razor Coast book
  • 10,500 GP. No one item worth more than 4,500 GP to begin with.
  • Two traits, drawback required but no third trait. Drawbacks make characters slightly more interesting I think.

  • RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

    DM Jelani wrote:
    I picked those spell lists, because they are the only full 9 spell level spellcasting classes. If there were some spell you really wanted for your character from another spell list, I'm sure we could work something out.

    Hmmm, well, I'm not solid on any particular class yet, still trying to get an idea of how things would mesh, but I think that bards are the ones getting the most affected by this, as bard spells are the likeliest to be "these are spells only a bard can cast" (there's a number of those, like saving finale, gallant inspiration, timely inspiration) as well as getting early access* to a number of the enchantment and/or communication spells-- confusion, tongues, heroism, hold monster, etc-- just to name a few. If I did want to make a "bard"-type character, to what extent would we be allowing access to bard-only spells, and to what extent would I be allowed to take the "early" bard spells at a bard-appropriate level, rather than the level at which they would come in for another class?

    *arguably it's not really "earlier" access. In Core PF, a bard would gain the ability to cast, say, confusion, at 7th level, which is the same level at which a wizard can cast it, while a sorcerer couldn't cast it until 8th. /tangent

    This is not really coming so much from a position of "I want to play a bard!!!" as "this is a question I can see arising with your system, so this is me giving feedback on it".

    Although playing a saucy shanty-singing pirate wench is gaining a little traction in my head. Eh, I'll continue to mull things over.


    Well...for me personally music=magic has never worked anyway, beyond baric performance.

    Your best bet would be a normal Hero/Arcane Hero. If you're wanting to be a spell focused "bard" then mostly arcane hero. If you'd rather be like a rogue with performance the other way around.

    I don't see those spells as necessary for a bard concept (and honestly they haven't been around forever anyway there were whole editions of D&D with bards that didn't have those spells), and as you mention they're not really getting them at an earlier character level, just an earlier spell level. Since the only casting progression in this is the full casting progression, it's kinda a moot point.

    If you want a shanty singing spellslinger, do arcane hero 5, charisma casting stat, human race.

    Human:Bardic Performance
    1st:Sneak attack +1d6
    Bonus:Bloodline
    3rd:Versatile Performance
    5th:Extra Performance
    Bonus:Extend Spell

    Or whatever variant on that which suits your fancy. Bard unique spells, we can talk about...bard "early" spells? Nah.

    RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

    Fair enough. I'll keep considering concepts. About the only thing I know I DON'T want to do right now is someone wearing heavy armor. Glug, glug, drown. :P

    RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

    Verifying this is intentional: while you still need a "high" wisdom (well, at least a 13) to take advantage of a monk's ki pool, there is no other benefit when building a 'monk' style character to having a high wisdom, since there is no option to add your Wis mod to AC defense?

    Tangenting off that: Is Mage Armor treated as a Defense boost, or Armor, in this system? Never mind, saw that one right after.

    eta No option to take the monk class feature High Jump as a feat, eh?


    I'm not done with the feats yet. If it comes after 10th level it shouldn't be there. Otherwise most things are in there....I may have missed highjump.

    RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

    High Jump is 5th level. I'm thinking an acrobatics-heavy type right now with some classic monk abilities, but if high jump is off the table I might swing a dip of an arcane caster for the jump spell, or something.


    I probably just missed it. Feel free to add it as a comment, and I'll approve it later.

    Pre-reqs:5th level hero, 5 ranks in acrobatics

    RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

    Alrighty *salutes*

    RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

    Clarification: we can start with M/A/D archetypes right out the gate, yeah--? We're not required to have level one be the Base Hero class?


    Thinking I'll be converting this character (a martial whip specialist who's big on desires and light on ambition)... Though I'll have to see if the conversion works well.

    Jelani, one thought of the bat: my original build was able to choose one of several classes/archetypes that granted whip proficiency in my initial build. Does an option like that exist? (e.g. how a Vengeful Hunter trades away heavy armor and tower shields for whip prof)?


    dien wrote:
    Clarification: we can start with M/A/D archetypes right out the gate, yeah--? We're not required to have level one be the Base Hero class?

    Certainly!


    Samir, the Golden Jackal wrote:

    Thinking I'll be converting this character (a martial whip specialist who's big on desires and light on ambition)... Though I'll have to see if the conversion works well.

    Jelani, one thought of the bat: my original build was able to choose one of several classes/archetypes that granted whip proficiency in my initial build. Does an option like that exist? (e.g. how a Vengeful Hunter trades away heavy armor and tower shields for whip prof)?

    No, but a human with three levels of vanilla hero has 6 feats to play with just from that. then grabbing 4th and 5th as a martial would give you three more. Eight feats at 5th level makes a fighter cry. Especially since a whip build doesn't really need any class features.


    Fair nuff, let me see what I can do!

    Note, to make sure I understand: if I do the build you're talking about I'd be hero 3/martial 2, so I'd have a 4 BAB, and only count two levels toward things that have martial as a req (like ranger combat style). Yes?

    If I go Martial 5 I'll have a 5 BAB and get the following feats:
    1 - human
    3 - 5th level (1st, 3rd, 5th)
    3 - fighter (1st, 2nd, 4th)

    If I went Hero 3 / martial 3 I think I'd actually have 9 feats:
    1 - human
    3 - 5th level (1st, 3rd, 5th)
    3 - hero (1st, 2nd, 3rd)
    2 - fighter (1st, 2nd)

    Did I get all that right?


    gyrfalcon wrote:

    Fair nuff, let me see what I can do!

    Note, to make sure I understand: if I do the build you're talking about I'd be hero 3/martial 2, so I'd have a 4 BAB, and only count two levels toward things that have martial as a req (like ranger combat style). Yes?

    If I go Martial 5 I'll have a 5 BAB and get the following feats:
    1 - human
    3 - 5th level (1st, 3rd, 5th)
    3 - fighter (1st, 2nd, 4th)

    If I went Hero 3 / martial 3 I think I'd actually have 9 feats:
    1 - human
    3 - 5th level (1st, 3rd, 5th)
    3 - hero (1st, 2nd, 3rd)
    2 - fighter (1st, 2nd)

    Did I get all that right?

    Yes. Except that you wrote Hero 3/martial 3 instead of hero 3/martial 2.


    DM Jelani wrote:
    Thron wrote:
    In

    One word? That's great. But some discussion would be cool :P

    Trying to get feedback on what you guys want, don't want, etc. Looking to go with majority here. I'm also open to changing some of the houserules if people don't like them.

    Ya...been busy with work. I still haven't had a chance to read the rules in depth is why I've been quiet. I'll read it over thorough and chime in.


    I'm thinking about playing an Int-based Divine Hero with shades of Oracle, Druid, and Monk.

    RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

    My current concept is best described as a mobility rogue/monk in PFS terms, though I'm (probably) not doing sneak attack or anything. Vanilla Hero or Martial or a blend of the two.

    Question: In this system, will Deflect Arrows be permitted to be used to deflect bullets? It is per RAW, and in PFS and so forth, but this world is likelier to be more gun heavy than the standard PF campaign/PFS game, so I'm just checking that it will do what I want/hope it will do before I commit to structuring a build around including it. It's possibly too strong a feat if it WILL work the way I want it to, and it's a much less useful feat if it won't, so.... Figured I'd ask. :)


    OK, here's my thought about Samir now:

    Feats:
    1 human: Ranger style [Faithful (Sarenrae): improved initiative], fighter: EWP (whip), base: cavalier order [of the cockatrice: dazzling display as a standard]
    2 fighter: weapon focus (whip)
    3 base: enforcer
    4 fighter: whip mastery
    5 base: improved whip mastery

    ...note, the cavalier order won't give any challenge bonus but it's worth it for the braggart ability alone, and will give him occasional extra attacks at 8th level too.

    EDIT: Dien, sounds like a fun build!

    Also, the awesome thing about the ranger style is that I'll get Whirwind Attack at 6th without needing the four bonus feats it normally takes...together with a 15' reach with my whip

    RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

    Thanks, Samir/gyrfalcon-- I don't really know if I'll be a damn lick of good on offense, but I basically just want to create a parkour runner doing stupid airflip shenanigans, ideally with the ability to run around and be annoying to enemies, with a decent defense/defensive abilities.

    ...offense. yeah. should consider that at some point. *shifty look*

    Whip fighter should be interesting to see play out!


    There is no such thing as Sarenrae in this world, Samir. Pele is the native fire goddess, and I think the colonizers also have one.

    RE:Deflect arrows...definitely. It says ranged weapon, it means ranged weapon. Though I'm tempted to add Ki Pool to the pre-reqs for the feat, because that makes no sense. But I won't. Go crazy.


    dien wrote:

    Thanks, Samir/gyrfalcon-- I don't really know if I'll be a damn lick of good on offense, but I basically just want to create a parkour runner doing stupid airflip shenanigans, ideally with the ability to run around and be annoying to enemies, with a decent defense/defensive abilities.

    ...offense. yeah. should consider that at some point. *shifty look*

    Whip fighter should be interesting to see play out!

    Offense = agile maneuvers, improved grapple, weapon finesse and unarmed strike?

    RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

    Eh, I was more thinking just packing a gun, honestly. If I spend three feats on WF, AM, and IG, that's three feats I'm not spending to do what I actually want to do. High jump requires ki pool-- that's two feats. Deflect arrows requires unarmed strike-- that's two feats. That locks up four right there (see, I have to take Ki Pool anyway. :P) and I would like to have evasion....

    The fluff behind the idea is someone who grew up as a street urchin and cabin boy-- think lots of running on wet ship decks, climbing in the rigging, running and leaping around the rooftops of a port city, etc.

    So, the combat idea is more 'use acrobatics to maneuver to useful positions and then shoot people' than to try and close for traditional monk fighting. Nothing's set in stone, but I don't expect it to be a high offense build, really.

    It might amusingly start reminding me of my level 14 PFS Dex-based lore warden/duelist. I was a rapier disarm fighter, and by the time we were in the level 12+ stuff, it was often a lot more useful for me to spend my turn double-moving around a battlefield provoking attacks of opportunity than it was for me to actually attack-- it's not that my damage was so very terrible, it was alright for a rapier, but my AC against attacks of opportunity was a 45 or something, so I'd just be like 'yo, try and hit me' and then my allies could get into position/cast/shoot without problems (barring Combat Reflexes). Not saying that's what I'd actively go for here, I just want someone who can move around. Might pick up the Dirty Trick tree, but, blah, again feat investments, and Combat Expertise Int req, etc.

    Sorry, I'm really just babbling aloud as I bat around possibilities.


    Jelani, Samir wouldn't worship Sarenrae anyway... But do you allow the styles in Inner Sea Combat? The style happens to have her in the name but I'm hoping to refluff it.


    Sure, Gyr.


    Do FCBs exist in this system? If so, are they always HP or SkP?


    Also, added some Qs about Defense, Armor, and Shields as comments on the doc. One more that's more open-ended design Q that I'll add here too. The doc says:

    "*Replace the defense bonus class feature with: “Defense Bonus: Starting at 1st level the Martial Hero gets a +6 class bonus to his Defense. This bonus increases by 1 at 3rd level and every three levels thereafter (6th, 9th etc). If a hero is wearing armor they lose their defense bonus."

    This seems like a strong incentive to wear either no or heavy armor (and a big disincentive toward light armor). If I understand correctly, a L5 Martial Hero with a 14 DEX gets:
    - No armor - 19 DEF (+7 class +2 dex), DR 0
    - L armor - 12 DEF (+2 dex), DR 4
    - M armor - 12 DEF (+2 dex), DR 6
    - H armor - 11 DEF (+1 dex), DR 9 ** with dex limited by the armor

    I wonder if you want to have the amount one's defense drops be related to the heaviness of the armor, or to its ACP (if at all). What do you think about:
    (a) Having the impact of armor on DEF be via it's Max Dex Bonus, not be lowering the class def bonus?
    (b) Or maybe by, say, subtracting the ACP from the DEF bonus (to a min of zero)?

    In the current form, (since a gun ignores the first 4 DR) someone wearing wearing heavy armor is getting hit almost all the time but gets DR8-4=4 to lessen the blows. Someone needs to roll +8 higher to hit someone without armor so they don't get hit as much. If that same person puts on some light armor, they are hit on a 12, and get no benefit from the armor since they'll get DR4-4=0.


    Wanted to confirm as well: if one takes some levels in Base Hero and some in Martial Hero...and then has level-dependent Martial feats (e.g. Ranger Style) does it trigger off of the total level, or only the martial hero level? (I *think* you said only the martial levels count toward it...but wanted to be sure.)

    Also a (minor) comment on formatting/organization: I think it'd be a bit simpler to read/grok if you just made there be four classes (martial/arcane/divine/"featful"). The current thing of templates is more confusing, both because then you need language about "templates mean something different in this system than in core PF" and because it requires flipping between two sections to see how a type works.


    gyrfalcon wrote:
    Do FCBs exist in this system? If so, are they always HP or SkP?

    Yes.


    gyrfalcon wrote:

    Also, added some Qs about Defense, Armor, and Shields as comments on the doc. One more that's more open-ended design Q that I'll add here too. The doc says:

    "*Replace the defense bonus class feature with: “Defense Bonus: Starting at 1st level the Martial Hero gets a +6 class bonus to his Defense. This bonus increases by 1 at 3rd level and every three levels thereafter (6th, 9th etc). If a hero is wearing armor they lose their defense bonus."

    This seems like a strong incentive to wear either no or heavy armor (and a big disincentive toward light armor). If I understand correctly, a L5 Martial Hero with a 14 DEX gets:
    - No armor - 19 DEF (+7 class +2 dex), DR 0
    - L armor - 12 DEF (+2 dex), DR 4
    - M armor - 12 DEF (+2 dex), DR 6
    - H armor - 11 DEF (+1 dex), DR 9 ** with dex limited by the armor

    I wonder if you want to have the amount one's defense drops be related to the heaviness of the armor, or to its ACP (if at all). What do you think about:
    (a) Having the impact of armor on DEF be via it's Max Dex Bonus, not be lowering the class def bonus?
    (b) Or maybe by, say, subtracting the ACP from the DEF bonus (to a min of zero)?

    In the current form, (since a gun ignores the first 4 DR) someone wearing wearing heavy armor is getting hit almost all the time but gets DR8-4=4 to lessen the blows. Someone needs to roll +8 higher to hit someone without armor so they don't get hit as much. If that same person puts on some light armor, they are hit on a 12, and get no benefit from the armor since they'll get DR4-4=0.

    Yes. That's how I intended it. Light armor doesn't do anything against a musket ball. It might stop a knife slash, though at the expense of slowing your reactions significantly. I want the default to be no armor, or some weirdo anachronistic guy in full plate.

    I'll crunch the numbers in a bit and we can see which one is better.


    gyrfalcon wrote:

    Wanted to confirm as well: if one takes some levels in Base Hero and some in Martial Hero...and then has level-dependent Martial feats (e.g. Ranger Style) does it trigger off of the total level, or only the martial hero level? (I *think* you said only the martial levels count toward it...but wanted to be sure.)

    Also a (minor) comment on formatting/organization: I think it'd be a bit simpler to read/grok if you just made there be four classes (martial/arcane/divine/"featful"). The current thing of templates is more confusing, both because then you need language about "templates mean something different in this system than in core PF" and because it requires flipping between two sections to see how a type works.

    All abilities key off total hero level, they are archetypes not different classes.

    The whole point of the system is to only have one class. I guess there is the minor difference from PF archetypes in that you can take different ones at different levels. But other than that its the same. I think what you really want is a chart for each archetype, but I'm too lazy to do that. I haven't even finished feats for all the classes yet.

    Edit:Put most of the archetype stuff on the class chart.


    I could add some more columns to the hero chart that show defense bonuses though.

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