The Grand Auction an interesting concept, but we already have someone in town who buys and sells the rare stuff of Khalharum. I'm not sure why we need to find/claim/buy/hoard ourselves when we have a nice NPC who greatly enjoys doing that already and a sparse but regular market of traders already. Aibek would likely focus on trying to help them grow - though our characters could always arrange a special auction if we came across something particularly spectacular.
Speaking of which, Aibek has plans to take at least Ayreth as well as any others interested shopping when they return XD
"Only" two poor housing is up to 100 people. As those people are mostly those our characters brought with them, Aibek has particular concern about both the health and how their poor housing is presenting a poor reputation for people who are trying hard mainly on stuff our characters have had them do. Aibek would argue that while not a top priority or a project that will make a major gain, it's an unneeded hazards, a division in a community, and something easily stretched over two months if needed that would benefit a lot of people. Of course Aibek is likely overthinking this even more than I am but at least we can all overthink together.
I'm happy to do leadership positions, I just have no idea on how Aibek would think on it since they're pretty much of the opinion that they're there to help the people and the rest of you and fulfill their pledge rather than any sort of long-term leader plans. I mean, I guess Nigrum would want to be head of military/policing/martial stuff + magma kobold relations but...unless we find a thinning, Aibek doesn't see much of a leadery niche for them.
Speaking of policing, Aibek will likely talk to Nigrum at some point when everyone is back together about concerns by merchant that an increase in people will need more of such policing to prevent thieving and raids and other concerns.
We should be able to get by without leadership positions. I built the system without them in mind. That being said, I can easily enough tweek it so they are included. It depends on what people would prefer.
You should be able to build farms and such. With a little magic, anyway. But space and such shouldn't be a concern. It's not kingdom building, really, but city building. I've tried to make it so building a single city will have more depth.
Which doesn't mean villages, towns and forts outside Khalharum can't be created, but I won't be bothering with the claim a Hex system. Unless you work at it, there's no point in claiming sand. There's plenty to go around.
|Azri, the Lich of Khalharum|
You say that like you think I'm not plotting some kind of industrial-scale Sand To Stone to help us build some of the more interesting things once the city is running properly. XD A bigger, better port that reaches out into the water would be cool. Something with walls, cannons, lighthouses that can be defended by one determined security guard for ten minutes straight... that sort of thing.
I might be joking. o wo Or I might not be. Only Yidhra probably knows for sure.
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
Well if your changing the system then I can't really comment. Like I said I know little about the original. Just after building my first military force and seeing some of the buildings and such, I am having a hard time figuring out how we will generate enough BP. Guess I'll leave it to you logistic types. My head hurts.
Sandstone, it's all in the name my dear Azri. ^.^
As for making an extended enclosed sea dock. Nigrum has plans and suitable aquatic types in mind already. Shoot me a PM if you would like to know or anything. I like to think I'm a cooperative schemer. I am happy with my warrior recruits and can't wait for them to be unveiled by our good DM. The rumors may be worth a chuckle even. :)
|Azri, the Lich of Khalharum|
Well, I don't think we're going to rival Absalom anytime soon, but I want it to be big enough to accommodate quite a lot of trade and protect ships from troublemakers. XD Eventually, anyway. That's probably not an urgent priority or anything.
Eh, I think that we can wait to settle on holidays and such: let's first think about putting roofs on our head and such. :P
Speaking of which, I think that we could start by upgrading the poor housings for now, to remove the malus to stability: we could look at upgrading the ruins we already have, then, maybe starting from the walls. Making another Market or two looks like a good idea, too.
And I'm definitely down with Aibek's idea to build a Town Hall! The towers are a little out of the way right now, and a bit empty. Having the hall close to where the majority of people are living will help.
Hah. XD I'm in the middle of that right now. ...Literally right now. As I write this.
Finished the game's True Ending yesterday. Man, that was one of the most powerful things I've ever seen. Definitely an outstanding game, even if I have still to find an explanation for most of the Drakengard connections: alas, I fear those will be explained in supplemental material, like Grimoire Noire for the first game.
Zelda: Breath of the Wild was my poison of choice, the last few weeks.
As far as the city goes, I'm in agreement that housing and a town hall are good priorities to have right now.
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
Without spoiling anything, I highly suggest the barracks are restored quickly. Only 3 BP cost due to ruins. It's planned inhabitants may not mix well with our civilians. At least outside of protecting them. :D
Besides that poor housing is cheap to upgrade at only 2 BP so all for it. That leaves us with Housing, Walls, Gatehouses (3), Temple, and Granary ruins to restore at half price. Which considering their cost should be considered before we build anything new sense their cheaper or equal to almost all others. Any votes on the god the first temple should be dedicated to?
Personally I would go with Abadar. Their church would really be on board with what we are doing and would no doubt offer support. Not to mention Abadar being the only thing that keeps Katapesh running fair trade.
Edit due to Ninja, or Rogue in this case.
How about this, sense we are gone for 3 months. Month 1 we upgrade poor housing, cost 2 BP. Month 2 we restore the barracks, cost 3 BP. Month 3 we restore the temple, cost 5 BP. This should remove our -2 stability, while granting us our city guard, +2 to stability and fame as well as a god's presence.
I wonder, (I've not had much time to read the rules yet), do temples have to be dedicated to one specific god? I know that temples to multiple divinities are a thing in some Pathfinder settings.
Agreed on Housing and Barracks. Even without knowing about whoever you're bringing back, improved barracks would be good in general and help reassure people that an increase in people will not lead to an overwhelmed guard.
I'm not sure who the ruined one on that island is/was dedicated to. A mixed temple if allowed or if there is one particularly important to the locals, one for that deity would make sense to Aibek. I know this is to maximize stats but I'm not sure in character what the justification would be for an advanced building unless some people are asking for it to be restored [which I guess we could ask the gm to do if we all really wanted it]? Most Aibek has spoken to want more trade/wider amount of industries, more policing/concerns about safety, and various things they would like to use a community meeting hall for other than meetings to discuss the town and community [posting and offering jobs/trade training, a school...Jon had to hit me right in the feels by having a kid show up].
And I will suggest the community hall be a Month 4 thing when everyone gets back. It does make sense that we mostly repair/upgrade until then. I'm just not sure on the third month...
Yeah, this hasn't been the Kingdom Rules since it's inception. While I plundered them for ideas, there is a reason I set up the website and took a few weeks off to write - it's a homebrewed system. Same with the mass combat units. That one is actually completely my creation, since every time I tried to read the mass combat ones my eyes skidded off in separate directions.
It is why I kept asking for feedback - I'm pretty good at this sorta thing, but frankly my brain is a mess, and I wanted to be sure this would all work. I'm actually pretty pleased with how well it balanced when I ran a couple of tests, but that was with my way of thinking and my planning - you guys aren't me, so I will assume we'll need more tweaking as we go along.
The simplest way to generate BP initially are trade caravan units. Building mines will do it too, as will some of the buildings you already have, and I'm sure there are other things I can do. I've actually got a couple of new ideas for buildings, which I'll try to add.
And in big dramatic IC moments, you'll be able to forge trade deals. The better you do, the more trade will come your way.
Because they only cost a total of 5 BP, both the Barracks and Poor Housing can be upgraded this turn. If you want to spend that much this turn.
Finally, you may all wish to consider the tax rate and promotion edicts. Your population won't grow much if you don't do promotion, which you'll need for buildings units and manning various buildings...but you only have enough housing for those you currently have. Expanding housing will be a must if you need to expand.
Mihara - You could do one general house of worship without dedication to any particular God, yeah. Sandpoint Cathedral had shrines to six different deities.
Seems reasonable so far. We won't fall to ruin in a month, right?
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
All for spending those 5 BP in one go. May want to see how our BP stash is doing before moving on though.
I justify the temple not only on it's stats but also for the priest that come with it. It will be a source of divine magic and healing. Also I expect that stability comes from treating the people's spiritual needs as well. So they get reassured and such in that way.
We have some housing ruins so with a mere 1 BP we can have those up and running. Does not get better then that.
I won't say much on the mines until I see what the DM has on it. But we still have two ships that can be used for trading purposes. Nigrum has the Sword Dragon for defense and escort duty. So that should bring in some BP once it's all set up.
As far as tax and promotion. I think the standard is good for now on tax. Promotion wise I would say start out with token as we just started. That way we have something but nothing too consuming. Maybe consider the same with holidays. Depends mostly on how much BP we end up with on the next month. Rather build solid and slow then bust the reserves to sprout a city quick.
Anyways if we grow to fast when some misfortune or bad event rolls by then the recovery will be even worse.
Added Greenhouses (+2 Stability, +3 Economy).
Created a countryside buildings section. I've included farms (+1 to Economy, Housing for 10, no space required), big farms (+2 to Economy, Housing for 50, no space required), Mines (+5 Economy), Outposts (+1 Stability, Early Warning) and Roads.
Modified promotion edit so your population now increase by 50 per 10 fame points the city has for each BP you spend.
Added a total housing to the Khalharum update, so you know how much more housing you'll need.
Hopefully, that'll provide for all your city building needs and wants outside the walls. It does give me a few ideas for events and plotlines (hey, you asked for it).
If you're going for spiritual needs and healing, Sarenrae might be a better choice than Abadar. Abadar is kinda...Ferengi-ish.
While I agree mechanically a temple may work, I'm just not seeing an in-character reason for it yet. If we want it Jon can likely make some but there has been little in-game to suggest a need or desire for it. Imposed treating of spiritual needs without request [especially if only to a deity associated with the aristocracy and tends to be Ferengi-ish in their care and often doesn't offer much in the way of healing but does offer legal support] may send the wrong message. A mixed one that local people want with their mainly deities makes sense in the living area with a bit of GM help for a need... maybe with a little corner for Tien ones if wanted and Calistria is already a local one maybe a bigger area with Selena's help... and save big solo ones for the sanctified island.
Got rogue GM'd while writing :) Love the additionals -- particularly greenhouses and the population numbers. Upgrading and building further housing does look more important with that number there if anyone is bringing anyone back with them...
|Azri, the Lich of Khalharum|
|Azri, the Lich of Khalharum|
Well, I feel like a lot of the morally neutral ones (excluding
the Lady of Pain Pharasma) don't have too many strong feelings about it as long as the undead aren't a problem... o wo Azri just wants to establish a city, rule it fairly, promote education and the general welfare... she might not have a G in her alignment, but she leans more that way than the other! DX
...yeah we're going to need to do philosophy and background checks on religious groups for safety reasons. We don't want temples of people wanting to destroy one or more councilor. Aibek's already twitchy that a group of Sworn are going to show up for a few of us. And the ones that overly like/fetishize our backgrounds could be as big of a problem for our characters. Neutral is good :)
Aroden/Iomedae, Calistria, Sarenrae, Nethys, Shelyn, Gorum, and Abadar are the ones we have evidence for in the city so far [plus a Phrasman graveyard] though there could be others like Gozreh and Silvanah which are well known in Katapesh. Plus those our characters bring with them...
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
Even if faith is not a big factor, practicality calls for someone to tend to the dead, dying, and ill. Some kind of faith would be best for that rather then none. Maybe the temple can be a faith shrine sense it's near the harbor. Like it was mentioned before a collection of gods on display where you can offer a prayer. Sense we do seem to have a god's island, which I may have forgotten about and likely will take a long time before we get to it. >.<
As for abadar being frrengi-ish, that's not exactly right. Abadar is all about the law and fairness without morality mind you, he is the leash on katapesh really or glue maybe. Abadar's faithful make sure scales are balanced, not rigged in someones favor there. They notarize contracts, willing agreements between two parties. Are in charge of business license and even make a point of giving inspections to make sure all these things are followed. They may charge for services but never anything but fair prices. Actively weeding out corruption and deceitful practices in the market. Katapesh even has a holiday based off a guy that was imprisoned for fraud and dirty dealing despite being one of the riches most powerful men in the entire city.
Yes I read up way to much on Katapesh lately. I blame only myself. xD
Great job on the update DM. Loving those greenhouses. ;)
Edit- Was ninja'ed but I change nothing. Except that Nigrum may bring Ichimeiyo, the warrior code as a philosophy. :P
It is practical, yes, but so are many other things like more housing and granaries due to people's concerns about the affect more people is going to have on Khalharum. If we agree to it then our GM can give us a reason to do it, that's part of why we're planning things in OOC, but the people have obviously doing something with that until now if there haven't been requests. I find it interesting that we haven't yet... like you say, they tend to do quite a lot in Pathfinder.
If we want a group to help with the dead, dying, and ill, a mixed temple would be best likely. As you read, Abadar is mainly business deals and contracts not healing and caring for general population -- that's why they're the deity of lawyers, judges, the aristocracy, and the elites which doesn't really represent our population [or some of our councilors] before we get into how Abadar's definition of fair and others' might differ. Abadar doesn't have a history of caring about the damage of even his own contracts, like a ferengi-genie where one has to word things ever so carefully and even then many others pay the price for it.
So, housing [upgrading the poor housing, repairing the ruined housing, possible more if we want to do more promotion/bring groups back], barracks, & a mixed temple seem to be the top picks at the moment plus the community hall once our characters are back together.
I'm not sure how many we're allowed to have in a mixed temple, but Aibek's preferences would be - unless we get community requests for others - is to ask temples of Calistria, Shelyn, Nethys, Gozreh since we're right on the sea, and Silvanah plus maybe a small Tien shrine section for Daikitsu, Sun Wukong, Tsukiyo & Shizuru since she goes with Tsukiyo and is the patron deity of samurai's which could fit in with Ichimeiyo [Tsukiyo could also make a good alternative to Phrasma for dealing with cemetaries and the dead though Aibek would be nervous to suggest that]. Sarenrae and Iomedae's policy on undead and fiends makes Aibek wary as does Abadar's unapologetic involvement in tainting the Shadow Planes though they wouldn't argue or stop others wanting to invite Abadar if only to keep the peace with neighbouring areas. We could also have a shrine to Yidhra...
If we go that route, a Desna altar, too, please.
I agree that Abadar doesn't feel right for our population.
As for whether or not to do it, it doesn't feel like a pressing need, but we most likely will eventually.
|Yidhra, Goddess of Paradoxes|
If it helps, my followers usually rent rooms in private buildings every twenty-three days or so, like all the other secret societies whose members have parents that won't allow the meetings in their houses. o wo But I'm not going to object if you want to put up my symbol and occasionally offer a hot dog or something.
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
I don't think their is a limit to how many faiths can be represented in a single "temple". I can't remember off the top of my head but I do remember reading about such a temple having a shrine for nearly all faiths in it, maybe Absalom or maybe Magnimar. While such a temple would likely be considered a shrine rather then a true place of worship sense it's sharing it's structure. Really you only need a statue or small section of wall to create a shrine to a god. So size would not be a problem ether. It's more of a dock welcome mat to the faithful or could be faithful sense their is a whole island of ruined temples for the priesthood to eventually call home.
Gods I think we should have represented/invite/suck up to are Daikitsu, Kofusachi, Qi Zhong, Sun Wukong, Tsukiyo, Shizuru, Besmara, Apsu, Sivanah, Irori, Nethys, Pharasma, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag, Abadar, Calistria, Cayden Cailean, Desna, and Gozreh. We may want to consider who will be next to who granted. It's like wedding seating, wrong order can cause disaster on a biblical scale. xP
Desna's a good choice :) Aibek's list is based on who we've already found ruins and stuff for as well as a couple general Katapesh ones plus who I could remember our characters using [Sun Wukong and Tsukiyo being Aibek, though they also quite like Sivanah both for her use of shadows as well as being such an enemy of The Midnight Lord to be banned in Nidal]. And Yidhra for reasons.
The limit is how many our lovely GM says there are XD. If we want priest[esse]s who do things, we probably want bigger space for a handful [which may have a limit] plus shrines [which will more likely not be limited since, like Nigrum said, we just need some wall space/statue] for the rest. Who we give what to may have consequences, as well as who we put next to who, which is why Aibek's mainly focused on local thoughts on it to delicately balance things.
Phrasma and Sarenrae are a problem with the whole really disliking undead and fiends, which is why I suggest Tsukiyo or someone else less likely to despise us to deal with cemetaries and such. I don't think we can suck up enough to them for them or their followers to overlook us nor for our characters to want representatives of deities who want us dead for exisiting. I'm still trying to figure out how we're going to do the Iomedae thing we told That Which Walks Besides we would do later, but at least that's not so close to us.
So housing [upgrading the poor housing, repairing the ruined housing, possible more if we want to do more promotion/bring groups back], barracks, then a mixed temple with big shrines with priest[ess] for Calistria [Selena could bring back friends!], Desna, Shelyn, Nethys, Gozreh, possibly Sivanah for being locally awesome and/or Tsukiyo so we have someone to deal with cemetaries and the dead [finding groups that deal with that and aren't a problem for us is...tricky] plus small shrines for Daikitsu, Kofusachi, Qi Zhong, Sun Wukong, Shizuru, Besmara, Apsu, Irori, Torag, Abadar, Cayden Cailean & Yidhra. A few of those may need to checked for 'not going to want to kill us' issues.
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
Phrasma is the only one with a hard line on undead. Being that everything about them goes against what she is about. So I agree there, may want to tread lightly. Still think that as long as Azri is not the only undead left in the world, they would be willing to put her on the bottom of the list. I don't see a Phrasma holy war against Geb every having happened or likely to happen. They only ever took part majorly against the whispering tyrant to stop a undead apocalypse in their backyard no less.
Sarenrae is all about goodness and redemption, violence being reserved for the unredeemable evil. Which we don't tolerate ourselves, so I don't see her being an issue. Unless you count them trying to nudge you into the G part of your alignment as an issue. For those that don't already swim in that part of the pool that is.
Iomedae is a hardcase but more on evil in general then anything else. Considering she is big on justice, rulership, and honor. I don't see why she would be against rulers that are just and honorable regardless of what they happen to be themselves if nonevil. Can't really help what your born as or take back bad decisions you made once upon a time. Yes I made myself a lich and that may have been my bad, but I build houses for the poor and don't eat souls. You don't see me pointing out that questionable tattoo below more then your armor that you got back as a squire one night. ^.^
Anyways we got temples of Aroden (got an idea for that), Pharasma, Shelyn, Abadar, Sarenrae, Gorum, Nethys, and Callistra already in place on another island so I would expect their faithful to show up sooner or later once word gets out. The church has a habit of wanting to reclaim/restart their old temples. So I would expect having to at least talk to those types. A bit funny Nigrum would rather not have Gorumites around.
As for the not wanting to kill us. I don't see anyone else on the list that would have a big problem. None of us are evil or overly unmoral to ruffle their feathers to much. Torag may get a bit bent out of shape I think but he is stuffy so nothing more then usual.
P.S. Can we call the dock multifaith temple "Faith's Landing"? I like the way it sounds. :)
Well, the Temples of the Northern island can't be used yet, what with the island not being under your control and therefore full of gribblies. Most Gods prefer their worshippers not get eaten on the way to service. Except Uragotha and maybe Gorum.
I am going to follow the Sandpoint example and say you can have six shrines in the multi-faith temple. And oh look, six people to choose one each. King Solomon eat your heart out.
To Summarise Month 1, then - you're upgrading the housing from the temporary slum style the refugees built to permanent housing, and repairing the barracks. No military units are being raised, no edicts issued.
OK - on to Month 2 (yes, I am going to work out the actual months still. In case you haven't noticed, speed is not my greatest asset).
Stage 1 - Upkeep
- Step 1 - Genereation: 1d10 + 9 ⇒ (4) + 9 = 13
- Step 2 - Upkeep: 1d5 + 7 ⇒ (1) + 7 = 8
- Step 3 - Total Income - 5+1+4
- Step 4 - Treasury Total - 22
- Step 5 - Anyone want to add or detract from the city funds?
Stage 2 - Edicts
- Step 1 - Tax Rate - Standard.
- Step 2 - Promotion - 0
- Step 3 - Holidays - 0
Stage 3 - Declarations
- Step 1 - No Change
- Step 2 - Begin Military Unit?
- Step 3 - All Resources Active.
Stage 4 - Expansion
- Step 1 - Claim a new district?
- Step 2 - Begin building?
Stage 5 - Random Events
- Hidden Vault - A hidden vault has been disocvered, unlooted since the cities founding. Gain 1d5 ⇒ 4 additional BP.
Stage 6 - Stability
- Step 1 - 6=6
- Step 2 - Stability (DC): 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (7) + 7 = 14
- Step 3 - Mood - Happy.
Summary - The city is happy. Current Treasury is 22 BP. Current Buildings under construction - none. Housing upgrades and Baracks completed. Military Units being raised - none.
Basic plan was to reactivate the Temple of Faiths for 5 points. Anyone else wish to add more to the whole fun times?
Several groups in pathfinder do believe that several races - including witchwolves, succubus offspring, and liches - are inherently evil no matter what and/or kitsune and changelings are inherently untrustworthy - like Nigrum thinks all gnolls are evil vermin even when they didn't choose to be born gnolls but instead an entire institution backed by a money, power, numbers, and a deity rather than one guy with a history with gnolls.
Since most of Aibek's backstory they've talked about is how Sworn wanted to kill them for being wolf's blood and/or shadow - all of the Sworn being religious fanatics after a boon from hardcase deities - I'm not sure you're going to convince Aibek that even if no one would bring a holy war to the city that groups of such followers wouldn't be an issue if allowed a large base of operations in the city particularly before adequate defences and such were in place first to regulate risky groups as many other cities and countries do in pathfinder. There are plenty of other deities to suck up to that don't view some of us as inferior or look highly upon getting rid of some of us to risk our lives to appease the followers of the ones that do.
Is the temple by the docks? I thought it was just on the same island. Faiths' Landing is a fun name either way.
Aibek prefers repairing the ruined housing, possible building more if we want to do more promotion/bring groups back, and moving temple building back to Month 3.
Who Aibek chooses for the temple will depend on who the others' choose. They'll likely choose one of the local ones if requested or if there is still a need for someone to care for the dead and dying, they may request Tsukiyo [though Pelar may prefer Magrim...]. Milani is an interesting alternative to Iomedae with That Which Walks Beside blessing and does healing as well.
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
For the record, Nigrum thinks gnolls are dishonorable savages. He does not really think in terms of good and evil. ;)
Unless I read Month 1 wrong. What's left on our current list is the temple and restoring the housing on the tower island. The total cost would be 6 BP, good thing we found that vault in the event phase. If we do that then in Month 3 we can create the town hall on the dock island if nothing whacky happens during the Month 2 phases.
As for which god Nigrum will pick, that's hard. He is not a really god type person, none really fit him personally.
What month are you bring in the Lotus Guard?
When you pay for them. I assume, all things considered, that'll you'll be paying a certain number of points each month until they are complete, given the total cost. But there's been no mention of paying for them in month 1.
The Military Units were designed to have the cost spread out over several months, of course, so I assumed you simply weren't ready for the expenditure/upkeep yet.
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
Yeah would prefer our basics are up first. Let me know once their story is up so I can release the rumors. :D
Here are the stats for the military force Nigrum is putting together for everyone. They will act as the city guard. Not super powered but mobile and nothing to sneeze at. Clearly their cost being what it is, they won't be fully trained for a good long while. At least they have somewhere to stay and train with the barracks up.
HP: 56 (d8)
Str: 16 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 12 Cha: 10
Fortitude: +6 (good) Reflex: +4 (bad) Will: +5 (good)
Armour Class: 18 Touch: 13 Flat-Footed: 15
Attacks: +7 to hit - 1d10+7 damage
Squad Leader - Doruk
Monstrous Mounts (Flying)
P.S. Do ship crews count as military forces or are they part of a ship? Or something else altogether?
With how Nigrum discusses honour and the gnolls [all the same, seeming to approve of their mass slaughter for being gnolls, savages], I would guess being inherently dishonourable could be seen as worse to Nigrum than inherently evil XD
Interesting unit -- though Khalharum has a city guard/militia and Aibek would argue that any city guard should really be made up of people from the city...and it would look odd and likely insulting to suddenly either change their jobs or fire them for outsiders. I think it makes more sense to have the Lotus Guard be a military unit that can support the militia or later be used for bigger issues. That plus possibly increasing recruitment to militia would be good for defence & well being...and probably just as much if not more of a basic than a temple, particularly where we are & the issues with raids.
So Aibek suggests repairing ruined housing, considering building further housing, & increasing the militia as a priority. If Nigrum wants to bring up the Lotus Guard, Aibek will suggest splitting the cost between the two groups...slower going but balanced.
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
Currently Khalharum has the tower guard and militia to defend the city. The militia is part of the population while the tower guard are the metal men we ran into before. Militia are basically people in the city willing to fight for the city, they are not professional soldiers or warriors whose sole purpose is to fight, defend, or police the city. They have day jobs and such, everything from butchers, bakers, and shopkeepers can make up a militia. The tower guard is made up of constructs and can not be healed normally. Also they can not be replaced once destroyed as far as I know. Nigrum does not like or approve of that sort of situation.
The Lotus Guard do not count as part of the population and their sole purpose is fighting, defending, and policing the city. Militia's are emergency forces to supplement military forces in an emergency. If the Lotus guard do their job, militia's of any kind should not exist or be needed. Citizens should not have to expect to fight for their lives on a regular basis if they did not willing choose that.
If you mean you want to turn the militia into a city guard. Then the militia unit can be upgraded and classified into a city guard. But that will reduce our civilian population and it's members will go over to the barracks. Which could hurt our community with the sudden loss of jobs that support the city. From what I remember, need to reread our gameplay in general, the people do not fight because they want to. They fight for themselves and their families because no one else will. Which is pretty much the whole point of the Lotus Guard, so they don't have to anymore.
I can see how some people may not like "outsiders" coming in. But if your getting attacked by slavers regularly and the only reason these people are here is to protect you from said slavers. They should not mind at all. Anyways Nigrum offered to train anyone that wanted to, how to fight. No one took him up on his offer, which is the only reason he went out and found those that would. Makes it pretty clear, no one wants to fight if they don't need to.
Or rather I hope Nigrum isn't so bad that they rather not improve their chances in living because of him. xZ
It was less 'no one took up the opportunity' and more 'no one had a chance to.' You kinda offered the ex-slaves at the docks the chance to learn, immediately left the city to deal with the fungus ship, and then the story ended at that section. It was never followed up on, especially since the bulk of the ex-slaves are still healing at this point, and the next I heard you wanted to recruit Hobgoblins.
...although, yeah, you really haven't made friends with the ex-slaves, and while they are likely to form a fighting force of some kind, it'll probably be with another person or group.
OK, so, to summarise the choices for month 2:
Aibek Proposes restoring the ruined housing (1 point) and building 2 additional sets of housing (4 points), increasing the population cap of the city by 150. I asked them, and they also want to start one point of promotion, raising the population by 50, totalling 6 BP.
Nigrum Proposes restoring the ruined temple, increasing Stability and Fame by +2. This will cost 5 BP
Is that right? And which would other folks prefer to do this month? Remember, I'm not making these choices.
Sorry, I really haven't had time to look into this.
I should have more time to look into this starting on wednesday. Until then, I trust in the judgement of my fellow party members on this.
(Fittingly, Mihara is way too far to make any kind of decisions here realistically.)
As Mihara will be returning from home with her own mass combat unit, it only makes sense that these would come out of the BP Jon and I agreed would represent what she's gotten as help from her family back home. Alternately, like the proposed Lotus Guard, Mihara's folk would be in training. I'll need a better understanding of the system to really go in depth with this.
As a follower of Daikitsu, she'd probably suggest re-establishing some form of farmland to ensure that the population is fed without worry.
... sorry for being so far behind. It's been a hectic couple of months.
Bodyguard Units are a little different. Since they'll be gained via RPing and story stuff, they'll initially join for free as a unit one lower than you. Of course, they'll also be more limited in what missions they can be deployed on...
I'll talk to each of you when you're ready to form one about exactly what abilities they get. 'Free' doesn't mean full BAB, full casting plate wearing dragon riding monsters. They'll effectively be a mass combat unit of you, so you can do stuff during the battle scenes.
And I cannot even think about commenting on not being quite with it for a couple of months.
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
Nigrum offered them the training when the party first got to the city when they first met Elie. This was a good bit before the fungus ship. So they had some time, admittedly maybe not a ton cause I definitely lose track of in game days. x)
Don't trust us to much Mihara. But the DM did put up Greenhouses, Farms, and Large Farms in the building section for food production. May want to give that a look when you have time. Hope things calm down for you. Been sick myself, flu of death.
|Azri, the Lich of Khalharum|
For the moment, Azri is pretty chill on this stuff, and happy to leave it to others instead of competing for what she herself wants. o wo Harmony and unity are important.
I've read up what was posted here, not so much the rules yet:
I think it would be neat to use kingdom roles, if only to provide some asymmetry and put in mechanics what the characters do in flavor.
Mihara's main area of expertise is in the mercantile realm and the realm of spying. As the latter isn't currently of much use, she would currently prioritize ensuring that Khalharum is prosperous enough to thrive.
I think it was a week or so before our characters split off again - during which time we were doing stuff all over the island and towers and Elysium so not really much time, particularly with them doing their own stuff like the dealing with the gnoll raid and the refugees helping with the boats, building their housing and recovering plus general daily living. There are a few weeks when Grimrod and those he brought with him helped to clear all but one of the Towers during which people were splitting off, but that's still not much time with everyone being so busy.
I think we have magic books or something so everyone can get their input in. Otherwise, only Aibek and Azri could do much in city planning for the first three months... the more ideas we bring together, the better I think :)
Aibek supports building farmlands [though likely greenhouses first since we don't have much protection yet and farms are easy raiding targets] and repairing the granary to ensure food security. They also want to talk to Elie about what is needed to better supply and possibly increase the city militia to meet the people's concerns about rising population.
So Aibek suggests for Month 2: restoring the ruined housing and building 2 additional sets of housing...and possibly starting promotion. This would be followed by in Month 3 increasing the militia [possibly split with a military force], starting greenhouses [can we spread this cost out over a few months?] and/or repairs to the granary. Month 4 when everyone is back, the community hall and the promotion if we want to delay that.
Aibek would certainly not want ruler position[s] involved at all, so many feelings the witchwolf has about power and corruption and is all about mutually beneficial groups rather than top down power structures, so absolutely fine with that. Really I don't know what they would think or do for a leadership position, likely hasn't occured to them. They've been pretty much just been talking and eating and working with people so far and trying to get some to stop calling them boss XD or they've been working on their map and notes and general reading and studying the area in the library.
Which reminds me, Aibek's mental todo is updated...again... a lot has been cleared between the dream one with Arman & Ayreth and the GM-one on one with many locals and books bringing more fun that has been added.
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
My understanding was that ruling the city was always a council deal. Never expected or was in favor of a single ruler type thing. :)
I would rather not waste BP and time on two military forces at the same time. Their is no reason to have two city guards, more so at this time. Not to mention they require a barracks and we only have one. If the militia is a city guard then they can be a priority. I'll scrap the Lotus Guard sense that was their function. Guess I'll change things so that Nigrum focused on his ship and crew during the break instead.
I would hold off on planning for month 3 until month 2 is resolved. Still suggesting the temple, maybe the ruined housing if we don't have a limit per turn BP type thing.
The city militia does not require a barrack. A city watch house in the future could help them but as their homes are in the city, they do not need additional beds like a barracks would have unlike if we bring others in.
I think having a city guard to deal with internal issues / policing / conflicts that come to the area where people live and a military unit to deal with larger and/or external threats Khalharum makes sense though hopefully the latter can be delayed...though again they're quite expensive so paying for them before we need them will be important. An outsider military unit shouldn't be doing policing - that's just asking for trouble and discontent - but the militia isn't equipped or really meant to handle bigger issues. That's why I suggest splitting a kind of defense budget of BP between the two so Khalharum can have all its defense bases covered. We could also set a goal to get the militia up to a certain point and then move to building up a military for the city.
Since people are concerned about the gnolls, other raiders, and what new people will bring, Aibek thinks helping to make defenses and safety using the militia and building is important. They also, as seen in their rambles and mental to do list, tend to think dozens of things at a timevand have lists of things from the people they've talked to plus you guys plus knowing that many things will need to be spread out, they tend to make multi-list multi-month outlines in their head.
The priorities for city building as Aibek as sees them - if we can get everyone's priorities, we can try meshing them tgether:
-- ensuring housing for people and any new that come so we don't get a slum situation again. [restoring the ruined housing and building additional sets of housing]
-- safety and people feeling safe [supporting and increasing the militia, possibly building a military unit alongside, walls, gatehouses, outpost & city watch house eventually. temple could kinda go here as well]
-- food security concerns [starting greenhouses, repairing granaries, eye on farmlands later once we can secure them]
-- Bringing in more people to help and build more up trades and industries [promotion, trade caravans, later increasing market]
-- Building a community hall to ease communication with the people possibly with regular discussion groups and community events like meals, a place to post and discuss work and tasks in the area, general meeting space that could be used by others in the community for important things like schools, training, and so on.
-- General repairs and tree planting.
-- Finding and securing a thinning for trade, communication, and feels though likely an IC event unless GM Jon has that on his hidden random events chart.
-- Plus things that have to do with the Nexus & Towers which don't fall into city building but are buzzing around Aibek's head as part of their building and repairs to do list.
Aibek [and I] is guessing when a mixed temple is built that Selena will want Calistria, Ayreth will want Desna and Azri...Nethys? Not sure if Mihara or Nigrum are going to go with Tien or local ones. Aibek will want to pick to fill in any gaps or concerns or important ones or to the locals. I'm having Aibek read up and discuss such things with locals for when we move ahead with this and they're still uncomfortable with recommending anyone close to home without a solid reason beyond their own personal preference and history [that and Sun Wukong, while fun for Aibek, doesn't seem a good fit - though I imagine him and Calistria having a good party]. Milani has the healing domain which is important...and she is generally awesome and would send a solid message I think even for a "minor" goddess. Aibek may want to talk to That Which Walks Beside about Milani as the 'sister' of The Inheritor would be equally acceptable to take over care of Aroden's temple. The Green Faith could also cover a lot of concerns [which ones I'll need to check with the GM] of nature and things, as well as please any druid we bring for the plant project
as well as please a certain dryad, totally not a reason though though a grove elsewhere may be preferred, Tsukiyo or Magrim would be useful if we want someone to handle the dead and cemeteries as they're the least problematic ones I could find, and there is obvious appeal to Aibek of local ones like Shelyn, Gozreh, or Sivanah for making locals happy.
So if we build a mixed temple, Aibek has their picks narrowed to Milani, The Green Faith, Shelyn, Sivanah, maybe Gozreh though they don't do temples much, and if we need someone to deal with cemeteries Tsukiyo or Magrim would be added to their list as well.
|Nigrum Ensis Halfblood|
I am having a hard time understanding what this outsider concept is. I mean everyone came to the city, no one has had family here for generations. Their is no old blood or natives, except ironically Okeno's free people. Honestly I don't see why having trained people come in for the purpose of protecting you would be an issue for anyone. These same people will become part of the community overtime sense they will be living there, same as anyone else. Also the party is pretty much the same thing, only we are protecting them and ruling them. Which again ironically I would say we ourselves would be more subject to this outsider mentality then people who only came because we invited them. If that's the case every new person in the city will fall into that category including the slaves we freed. If you have a problem with new guards then you should have a problem with new blacksmiths, new shopkeepers, and new laborers. Rather anyone who came after you.
Sense the cat is out of the bag so to speak. The Lotus Guard I planned on bring was made up of freed slaves, trained by Nigrum. Focusing that training on discipline, loyalty, and duty. If they have a problem with freed slaves that took Nigrum up on his offer of training. Not that he didn't use their own situation and nature to his advantage, cause he plays that NG. I don't see us ever having a military force for decades, while "locals" are being born and raised.
As I said militia's are not by their definition primary fighting forces. Unless you want to militarize the city, where everyone is required to have a certain degree of fighting ability. Something I think the average person in a city would disapprove of and resent. Personally I would as it's a stripping of choice. Spending resources on the militia is a drain we don't need. If they want to fight and have it as a job then it's a city guard, not a militia. Regardless I am not in favor of splitting cost on a fighting force, we can't afford it right now.
I will have to think on gods. Nigrum is not big into that and he is a practical sort. So odds are something he thinks will bring benefits to the city rather then anything personal.
As to priorities for Nigrum. Defense of the city is his main priority. He will give his input on everything else but that's what he focuses on and is good at. Basically almost everything he does or plans has to do with that. xP
P.S. Pazio is acting strange again, no updates were showing for me. Everyone may want to check their games manually.
Yeah, no updates here either. This is gonna be a pain in the ass.
I think the difference is Aibek would prefer the locals - many of whom have been there for generations, or a number of years - remain as the 'police' force. The Hobgoblin Lotus Guard would be a combat unit, perhaps for patrolling the areas outside the city.
Nigrum would prefer the Lotus Guard served as police as well as military, while the Militia serves as additional defenders.
I should point out that, mechanically speaking, having one as a police force and one as pure military has no difference. This is pure roleplaying, so I'm not going to but in.
Also: I know Mihara is a little busy, but when Azri, Ayreth and Selena check in (thank you, lack of notification) we could really do with deciding whether Aibek or Nigrum's plan for Month two goes ahead.
Or one of you guys could propose your own ideas. That would be cool too.
If it comes down to a tie, I'll go with whichever Nexus would agree to, or roll a dice if they both make sense IC and Mechanically.
So Aibek suggests for Month 2: restoring the ruined housing and building 2 additional sets of housing...and possibly starting promotion. This would be followed by in Month 3 increasing the militia [possibly split with a military force], starting greenhouses [can we spread this cost out over a few months?] and/or repairs to the granary.
I'm generally in favor of this as food and housing should be an early priority. Militarily, things will be a slow burn, I'm guessing.
The notification thing sucks b~$&~*!!.
|Azri, the Lich of Khalharum|
They know about the updates issue and are working on it, I believe. But yeah, that kinda threw a huge wrench into my plans. XD;
Hopefully the notification thing will be fixed soon. Most probably know this, but Jon showed me if I click the play-by-post or discussion version link at the top and then click focus, it shows previously viewed threads in that area which can be helpful as a quicker way to check.
As Jon mentioned, there are people who have been here for generations along with people who have been here many years. Azerna has been in Khalharum for over a thousand years, Elie has been there twenty something years. While most are closer to Elie than Azerna, it isn't just Okeno free people. We have families including kids and teens in the city with long established roots right now; it's not just newbies and we don't need to wait until anyone grows up because they're already there.
Yes, Aibek is keenly aware of how outsider our characters are and I'm not sure what in how I've written the witchwolf makes it seem like Aibek thinks such things only apply to those after them. Our characters are accepted because the people of Khalharum are mostly nice open people and our characters satisfied their qualifications to set up as councilors. That doesn't mean everyone our characters do is going to be acceptable. Aibek feels the community would be well within their rights to kick us out of our positions whenever they want and that we're only in our positions through the kindness and blessing of those living here and a bit of magic and a pledge while important does not trump the people's wishes. It's why Aibek has spent their months talking and working with the people and trying to mend divisions between the older community and the people our characters brought with them and themself. Aibek has a major problem with themself in a leadership position over others especially an established community and would never say they were ruling people, but using resources to enable the people to protect and be better enabled to put in place community decisions which people did not have resources or access to the Nexus to do. I'm not sure Aibek will ever feel they are not an outsider - they barely feel they belong on the Material Plane let alone as part of this group with being the one who didn't know Zhen Halfblood personally until the meeting [and never told him who they are] alongside everything else they think makes them either unsuitable and/or puts too much at risk.
As Jon said, mechnically there is little difference between what Nigrum and Aibek are proposing for forces. They both want to put in a certain number of points to begin building defence forces. As Ayreth put it nicely, a slow burn situation so they pay it off little by little so it's all safely there before a big bang.
Roleplay wise, which is obviously more how I'm thinking about things, I cannot imagine how a community would feel safe having an army handling community issues, even more so one made up entirely of people they do not know no matter how well trained. Do our characters really want soldiers dealing with pickpocketing and drunk and disorderly issues and calming disputes between neighbours? Is that the best use of all the Lotus Guard's training? There are 4 unclaimed islands plus the waterways plus the walls around the claimed islands that could be patrolled adding onto whatever is going to happen when our lovely GM sends something bigger the city's way. I really cannot see how essentially demoting 160 members of our population who have done a lot for the community for way longer than any of us and replacing their community functions with brought in trained soldiers is not going to cause major problems. I mean, Aibek sees a big difference between a city militia meant to help maintain city peace and merchants in term of community roles, but they're not going to tell either that we've decided to wholesale replace them...if we do that with one group, people may worry our characters are going to do that with more and we already have a few nervous people.
Really, until Nigrum talks to the community about it, it's a pretty hard sell in-character for many reasons and even then it's quite dicey. It isn't just about being protected, it's feeling safe as well. I think few feel safe having an army doing a city watch/police's job no matter their skills because their expertise is not in community relations [which, really, isn't the swordman's strong point either]. Usually when the military acts as the police, it's either a war zone and/or a dictatorship - and because of their training they're hammers looking for problems/nails, they start treating people like that which I don't this is what any of us want Khalharum to be or look like. Aibek [and possible others] will wonder what war Nigrum is planning to fight with this unit if he wants them to be in charge of practically everything including internal community needs rather than a usual at the walls type military that would only be active in the community area during an emergecy -- and Aibek is a former brought in soldier at someone else's command to often violently enforced the rule and edicts of an all powerful ruler in a tainted war zone so it would all looks like red flags to them and they've not even close to coming to terms with how cruel Archon Adilet and the situation in the Shadow Planes is [though they have had their first sobfest in front of Azerna about it at the end of Dream. Poor shadowpup, and GM Jon who while writing Azerna's part was quite O.O; in not knowing how to react/help the poor pup. Thankfully the months part is being much nicer to them both].
I just do not see a militarized police force being a good way to help the people rebuild Khalharum or looking good for any of us. We need more than [sledge]hammers in the toolbox and I'm not sure why wanting multiple groups roleplay wise is an issue especially when mechanically they do the same thing.
@GM Jon: How much can we spread out building stuff? Like a Greenhouse is 10 BP, can we break that into 2 or 3BP increments? I know we can divide things up particularly forces, but I'm asking how much if there is a limit to how much we can divide it up. Obviously probably don't want a greenhouse to take ten months, but is over 4-5 okay with obvious risks that something comes up which delays finishing if we do that?
I'm going to guess a trade caravan is not something we can spread BP on since it's a visiting thing? If we can how does that affect bonuses?
Things discussed so far and their basic costs/benefits [since some haven't read and it's easier for me having it all in front of me]:
Repair housing [1 BP], additional housing [2 BP for 50 people] - population cap increase.
Repair granary [2 BP] - prevents famine
Greenhouse [10 BP] - +3 Economy, +2 Stability, Delicious Veg
Farm [6 BP] Adds 1 to Economy and Housing for 10.
Repairing walls [4 BP] Adds +2 Defence to each Island.
Repair Gatehouses [4 BP each, 3 of them] Adds +2 to the defence of each island.
Town Hall [5 BP] Allows meetings and to keep on top of issues. Connected to Nexus. +1 to Stability.
City Watch House [10 BP] +1 Stability, +1 Defence.
Temple [10 BP] - Stability +2, Fame +2.
Lotus Guard [56 BP]
Militia Update [?? BP - they're current Level 4 and we would need to decide how we want to do things]
Promotions [Varies BP as its up to how much we want to do this. Each one increases population by 50 at our current level so needs to go hand in hand with housing and such I think].
So Aibek still wants to repair housing and add 2 addtional housing for 5 BP plus maybe one point of promotion for Month 2.
From there...it depends on how the priorities & dice fall:
Food security is important,I think starting with the granary repair as back up then starting on a greenhouse though it will likely take a while.
If defence is wanted, alongside militia and guard, we could start repairing the walls and gatehouses. I still think making a defence budget of like 2 BP for now and biting away at that across things or starting with the walls & working through and putting BP into it when we can will help protect from nasty surprises.
And Aibek still really likes their idea for a community hall. As said it will depend on how our characters and the community want to prioritize and how the dice generator rolls for us.