Ok enough debate about the pathfinder cleric. What's done is done. Time to get to making a cleric class I want in my game.
My plan: I want to create a class named Cleric that honors the old editions but is rebuilt to be balanced with the other Pathfinder classes and with itself. That means the domains need to be balanced first and foremost. It also means they if they are going to remain the toughest casters (best armor options, best saves, and best hit die) they better not be as good offensively. I also want to use the domains to make each cleric stand out from each other.
My preconcieved thoughts on the cleric:
1) Ability to wear the best armor in the game, that means heavy armor proficency. (I might limited this by domain, I might not.)
2) Able to turn/control undead.
3) Is the most defensive class in the game.
4) Can be more then pure support.
5) Has things to do outside of combat that matter.
Ok now that said I am not ruling out introducing a class like the speciality priests of second edition. It would be for people who want more focus on casting and less on melee.
Ok first I need to work on the domains. Tonight my plan is to go over all the current ones and build just one that is at the power level I want my domains to be. One thing to be certain is domains will include feats, more then one spell per level, and increase the spell lists of a cleric. I will also need to come up with a core spell list for all clerics, shooting for 5 - 7 spell per level, with domains each adding 3-5 more.
Any ideas or input would be great. Here however is not the place to continue the debate over the pathfinder cleric, if you like him as published, great but this thread is about a rewrite from the ground up based much more on the D&D cleric then the pathfinder one. So if you aren't commenting about that, I will not be replying to you.
I will post my progress as often as makes sense. I will also read thoughly any ideas you might post up and be more then willing to rethink issues. I am not perfect, I will make mistakes.
Well, erm, what do you want this class to lose/be bad at? I mean, you certainly don't want to remake the 3.5 druid w/ turn undead.
Well, erm, what do you want this class to lose/be bad at? I mean, you certainly don't want to remake the 3.5 druid w/ turn undead.
Nope. I did point out that they would lack offensive power. They might have a few offensive spells, certainly the war domain and such will but in general it's a defensive class. Think cleric ala 1st ed.
Look all I might end up with is balanced domains, which is lacking in pathfinder right now, heavy armor as part of the cleric class, turning as part of the cleric class, loosing channel energy, loosing diety's favored weapon. The point is I want to go back to a more D&D style cleric and balance the class while doing so.
Even if you hate the idea of heavy armor the class in the end needs lots of balance work done to it. There is a thread were they are talking about how paladin healing approaches cleric healing, few debate reasonably the balance issues of the domains, and can there be any debate that giving a feat to some clerics and not to others based only on the name of the diety makes sense?
Ok first I need to work on the domains. Tonight my plan is to go over all the current ones and build just one that is at the power level I want my domains to be. One thing to be certain is domains will include feats, more then one spell per level, and increase the spell lists of a cleric. I will also need to come up with a core spell list for all clerics, shooting for 5 - 7 spell per level, with domains each adding 3-5 more.
Could you provide a little clarification on what you are looking to do here?
If I understand you correctly (and I'm not entirely sure I do, hence my question), you are looking to reduce (remove spells from) the main cleric spell list while giving domains a selection of spells (3-5) at each level. If this is not the case please explain what you actually have in mind.
Also two additional questions -
Will clerics still get 2 domains?
Will the spells per day remain the same n+1 progression (n being selected from the class spell list and +1 referring to 1 domain spell)?
Good questions. I am not at all sure. I was planning on keeping the two domain idea, but it has proven to be tough. Still I think it best so I will continue to strive for two domains.
My first thoughts were to do as you explained. Small pool of spells that all clerics have, then domains that add to that pool. I was thinking of doing away with the n+1 though, and leaving just n, however I am not set firmly on this at this time. For now it is just an idea.
One thing that came to me was I want to increase the skill points per level for the cleric (and other classes but here I am focused on the cleric). Well I want to, but again to remain balanced with the other classes can't unless I do so with them. However that doesn't tie my hands completely. What I am thinking is I will grant all clerics this ability at level 1.
Religious Calling: Religion has always come easy to you, you felt drawn to it's study and you pick up on the topics with ease. Benifit: Your gain a free rank in knowledge religion at each level of cleric you obtain, meaning you can't spend skill points on it from your cleric levels. Ie a level 7 cleric will have 7 ranks in knowledge relgion at no skill point cost. If you gain levels in other classes you may spend points then to keep it going but there is no requirement that you do. ie a level 7 cleric / level 2 wizard would have 7 free ranks in knowledge religion but could spend two wizard skill points to give them 9 ranks, but they are not required to.
Effectively this gives them one more skill point per level, it also makes them the experts on religious matters, which frankly the cleric should be without having to spend half his skill points to be.
My first thoughts were to do as you explained. Small pool of spells that all clerics have, then domains that add to that pool. I was thinking of doing away with the n+1 though, and leaving just n, however I am not set firmly on this at this time. For now it is just an idea.
This is where I thought and hoped you were going. This should work out just fine balance wise and flavor wise. Doing something similar with class skills has been done before successfully so the concept has been proven. The biggest downside is the time it will take to sort through the spell list and assign spells. I understand you are still not set on a lot of things, such is the way of design.
I really like the Religious Calling ability. I too have felt the cleric was a skill starved class.
While I like the Pathfinder cleric, some of your rework ideas seem to offer improvements that are even more to my liking. I may have to work up a hybrid cleric for my house rules.
I'm glad to see someone channeling their outrage at the changes made into something more constructive than complaints. I wish you success in this and hope any input or comments I offer are helpful to you.
Very helpful and it is a daunting task picking 5-7 spells per level for all. The next step will be even harder, I need to make sure the domains don't overlap much, the more any two overlap the weaker that combo of domains will become.
One thing I am beginning to become sure of is that channel energy has to go. Granting it to all clerics turns all clerics into healers. If we aren't going to force all clerics into the battle cleric role we should not force them into the healing battery role either.