Quiznab |
I've been playing around with a few Arcanist builds and I think an Occultist with a bunch of summoning feats is probably going to be one of the most effective builds. The new feat that let's you add a 1 point evolution to a summon seems very nice (e.g. add pounce to something with multi-attack or make their attacks count as magic).
I had a look into blaster builds too, I don't think arcanists get enough spells per day to make that worthwhile unless your playing kingmaker or something with a short adventuring day.
I'm interested to see how the illusions stack up when we fight lots of enemies. I think they may be quite powerful there.
Quiznab |
Anyone got a cunning plan? :) I think Quiz will be retching in the corner for a while. Rena too more than likely.
Grenadel "Rena" Aeleanir |
Does this count as a "poison" save? If so, as an Investigator gets +4 for 19 to Save. It has poison in the descriptor.
School conjuration (creation) [poison]; Level magus 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3; Domain smoke 3
Grenadel "Rena" Aeleanir |
Found this:
Poison: Poison effects use poison, venom, drugs, or similar toxic substances to disrupt and damage living creatures through chemical reactions. Technically, acids and poisons are both chemical reactions, but for the purpose of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, they are categorized as different effects, with acids dealing hit point damage and poisons causing ability damage, ability drain, bleeding, confusion, convulsions, nausea, paralysis, reduced healing, suffocation, unconsciousness, or death. Creatures with resistance to poison (such as dwarves) apply that resistance to their saving throws and the effects of poison spells. Creatures with immunity are immune to poisonous aspects of poison spells, but not necessarily all effects of the spell (for example, a spell that creates a pit full of liquid poison could still trap or drown a poison-immune creature). Source: Ultimate Magic.
Poison Resistance (Ex)
At 2nd level, an investigator gains a +2 bonus on all saving throws against poison. This bonus increases to +4 at 5th level, and to +6 at 8th level. At 11th level, the investigator becomes completely immune to poison.
Grenadel "Rena" Aeleanir |
I know you're not keen on developer clarification/interpretation, but there is a thread where this is discussed.
James Jacobs indicates "this is a poison effect" should have been included in the spell text.
Stinking Cloud vs Poison Immunity
Just making a case. I did not have this info yesterday. Thought the descriptor would be enough. Come to find out, the descriptor was added in UM book.
As always, you're the boss.
baldwin the merciful |
Does this count as a "poison" save? If so, as an Investigator gets +4 for 19 to Save. It has poison in the descriptor.
School conjuration (creation) [poison]; Level magus 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3; Domain smoke 3
I see they updated the pfsrd. I missed this post earlier.
Grenadel "Rena" Aeleanir |
Thanks rgds the cloud/poison, sir.
I posted an action, but am confused. Can we move through the villagers?
Does the cloud obscure visibility? Or could Rena have just stepped behind the villagers?
I know we avoid retcon.
baldwin the merciful |
the cloud obscures viability beyond 5 ft including darkvision just like fog cloud. As far as the villagers they appeared to be bound together from what you saw (before the stinking cloud) and they are being used as wall/shield - so moving through them will be difficult and potentially trap filled.
Xavier Longsaddle |
Thanks for the Clarification on fervor, Quiznab
Yes Baldwin, the Warpriest's whole Schick is the Fervor Ability.
He is kind of like a Divine Magus.
A magus can Cast any spell+Attack with the same action (spell combat)
A Warpriest has a limited pool (Fervor) which can be used for either and weaker version of Lay on Hands (1 to 1)
Or As a swift action, a warpriest can expend one use of this ability to cast any one warpriest spell he has prepared. When cast in this way, the spell can target only the warpriest, even if it could normally affect other or multiple targets. Spells cast in this way ignore somatic components and do not provoke attacks of opportunity. The warpriest does not need to have a free hand to cast a spell in this way. (1 to 1)
Or he can usually burn 2 uses to use CHANNEL. Xavier has an Archetype that trades channel for SMITE. To smite at a 2 to 1 rate. 2 fervor for 1 smite.
Daniel has used 2 fervor already today so only has 4 uses left.
Funny how everyone in the playtest is b!+ching cause the playtest version had FULL BAB with his deities favored weapon. Paizo removed that cause it was overpowering. At the moment I am putting him even with an inquisitor.
STR Ranger |
So unlike the magus the WARPRIEST can only swift cast spells that affect himself.
Basically he self buffs faster than anyone in the game.
That's where his power lies cause tthe inquisitor gets more skills, BANE, and early access to the best divine buffs a level early and a much stealthier spellist and SWIFT Judgements.
The Warpriest doesn't get that but he can get his buffs up way faster.
Grenadel "Rena" Aeleanir |
1. Not a huge fan of Power Attack, think hitting is more important.
2. Why is Quiz ignoring the dying Bug? Especially after DM gave us breaks and said Quiz sees him.
I think we went into this a bit too cocky, thinking they were warmup chumps. And, I'm sorry I made the human shield comment.
I would have backed out, but been out of the action for 6 rounds, her personality would free the peeps... And I wanted to beat the cloud saves the entire duration!
Quiznab |
Hmm I missed the post where he said I saw bug :/
DM says he doesn't like retcons so I suppose I'll have to stick with my actions, tho I'd have given him my potion otherwise.
baldwin the merciful |
1. Not a huge fan of Power Attack, think hitting is more important.
I think we went into this a bit too cocky, thinking they were warmup chumps. And, I'm sorry I made the human shield comment.
I rarely utilize PA as DM, I don't like to deal out massive damage amounts on the players - usually. I also like the idea of hitting more often.
I had already thought of the human shield but you've been in two of my games so you probably already figured that out.
The module was an old 3.5 module and they had hobgolblins with levels of fighter, I switched the inside creatures for Raging Swann's Orogs for more of a challenge.
Ultimately, the battlefield control with the stinking cloud hurt low fort save characters.
Not looking to kill folks off, so I didn't pile gave you opportunities to regroup.
Quiznab |
Off to bed now. GN all.
Grenadel "Rena" Aeleanir |
One heck of an AC?!? It's low to mid 20s. That's hardly high. Looking above, 23s have hit, but sub 20s have not. Now granted these are NPCs, but full plate and a shield will get you to 21 without spending a lot of cash. I could make a build which had easily 27 with this WBL at 6th even including a magic adamantine weapon.
All true, but as a group we sorta average 19 (if Quiznab has Mage Armor). And the friggin' werebear isn't hitting.
Xavier Longsaddle |
Our tactics are poor. I am currently playing Xavier like a Paladin and I am now paying for it.
After this encounter I won't have much fervor left so I'll need to play more like a cleric and buff first then anchor off of the fighter.
Currently I am at full HP, have a flank, two buffs and a cloud to retreat to so ok, atm.
I would heal Bug but I don't know how hurt he is. What XXavier DOES know is the villagers need time to escape and he has a WEREBEAR flank buddy.
Quiznab |
In hindsight we should have backed off when two of us got incapacitated. I'm hopeful now the illusionary wall will break things up into a series of smaller fight where we outnumber them.
Grenadel "Rena" Aeleanir |
The night time's the right time. Be safe you! Same job?
Let's not be too hard on ourselves or the DM. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast...
Hopefully there's not another cloud. Once Rena is able, ranged support is on the way. For what it's worth.
She loses one round (standard action) for each extract she takes. Ugh...
@Baldwin - Gloves of Gravity Bow, command word free action 3x/day?
Bug Eater |
Actually you have do an estimate of the CR and see how we should have fared:
Wizard/ Orog casting 3rd level spells- 5th level at least- CR 5 or 6 (depends on how you factor in Orog). (though I am left wondering why it's only 2 magic missiles if 5th level)
Something seems amiss on the monk ranger. As an orog, I can't see how he's only hitting for 1d6+4 (orog base strength is 18, so +4, but favored enemy gives another +2, so I should have been taking +6). But I'll assume he just forgot favored enemy damage, and this sets the strength at 18. The monk is hitting at +8, so we need to find +4 more. Orog gives +2. If we do monk 2 (to get flurry BAB to +0/+0) and ranger 2 we get there. This makes another CR 5.
The fighters are hitting at +12. Looks like their strength is 20 (based on 2 handed damage of 7). So we need to hunt up +7. That's easy, Orog gives 2, so +5 needed. So fighter 4 with weapon focus greataxe. Again, CR 5.
So if we assume no synergy between orog levels and wizard, we end up with a party of 4 CR 5s. By EL calculation that gives a level +3 encounter of 9. That's not quite suicidal, but certainly a very hard one. Given the situation (hostages, restricted entry, knowing we're coming, etc) the EL is effectively higher.
(this doesn't take into account the Hobgoblins beforehand, or the werebear ally which does adjust things a fair amount).
I think what occurred here is that the GM came into the game with the preconceived notion that the ACG were overpowered and he threw a viciously hard encounter at us because he thought it was the way to test the 'overpowered' classes.
We were informed up front that he thought the classes were too powerful, and should have expected to be getting the rough end of things. We traipsed in anyway and got our heads handed to us.
Quiznab |
Let's just see what happens when we go in with better tactics. I predict we'll slaughter things, even APL +3, assuming its possible to rest in this adventure.
Bug Eater |
I don't know if you're right. This brawler is a glass cannon. AC 19 doesn't back it very well up front at this level, and mutagen is limited in duration. I could have made a tougher fighter front liner. In a couple of levels I will be able to spike my damage higher, but 6th is before this class comes into its own.
baldwin the merciful |
Since you all are trying to dissect the situation:
Here is the wizard, I changed changed his spells a little and the wand of MM as opposed to wand of web.
OROG POTION BREWER CR 4 (XP 1 , 200)
This gray‐skinned, stocky humanoid has course dark hair and
dark eyes. It wears robes and carries a thick quarterstaff.
Orog wizard (universal) 3
LE Medium humanoid (orc)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0, Sense Motive +3
Speed 30 ft.; ACP 0; Ride +8
AC 13, touch 13, flat‐footed 10; CMD 17
(+2 Dex, +1 dodge [Dodge])
Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +4
hp 41 (6 HD)
Space 5 ft.; Base Atk +3; CMB +5
Melee mwk quarterstaff +6 (1d6+3)
Ranged hand of the apprentice (range 30 ft.; 6/day) +7 (1d6+3)
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 3rd; concentration +6; arcane bond
[ring])
2nd—bear’s endurance, invisibility
1st—expeditious retreat, mage armour, shield
0—mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magic
Combat Gear oil of darkness, scroll of stinking cloud, wand of
web (11 chgs.)
Abilities Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 11
SQ orc/ogre blood
Orc/Ogre Blood (Ex) For all special abilities and effects, an orog
is considered an orc or ogre. For example, orogs can use
special ogre or orc weapons or magic items with racially
specific ogre or orc powers as if they were ogres or orcs.
Feats Brew Potion, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Scribe ScrollB
Skills as above plus Craft (alchemy) +12, Handle Animal +6,
Knowledge (arcana, history) +9, Spellcraft +12, Survival +6
Language Common, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Orc
Gear as above plus adamantine ring (worth 200 gp), spell
component pouch, pouch with 229 gp worth of mixed coins
and gems
Spellbook as above plus 2nd—bull’s strength, cat’s grace,
darkness; 1st—alarm, colour spray, disguise self, identify,
mount, magic weapon; 0—all
OROG TRAINEE MONK CR 4 (XP 1 , 200)
This gray‐skinned, stocky humanoid has course dark hair and
dark eyes. It wears loose clothes and holds a huge longbow.
Orog monk (hungry ghost) 2/ranger1
LE Medium humanoid (orc)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +10, Sense Motive
+5
Speed 30 ft.; ACP 0; Climb +8
AC 14, touch 14, flat‐footed 11; CMD 21
(+2 Dex, +1 dodge [Dodge], +1 Wis)
Fort +11, Ref +8 (evasion), Will +6
hp 52 (6 HD)
Space 5 ft.; Base Atk +4; CMB +8
Melee unarmed strike +9 (1d6+4), or
Melee unarmed flurry +8/+8 (1d6+4), or
Melee mwk greataxe +9 (1d12+6/x3)
Ranged mwk composite longbow (range 110 ft.) +7 (1d8+4/x3)
Atk Options Boar Style, Combat Reflexes, Punishing Kick (2/day),
favoured enemy (+2 humans)
Boar Style The monk can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing
damage with his unarmed strikes—changing damage type is
a free action. While using this style, once per round when he
hits a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, he can
tear flesh. When you does, he deals 2d6 bleed damage.
Punishing Kick The monk must declare that he is using this feat
before he makes an attack roll (thus a failed attack roll ruins
the attempt). On a hit, the attack deals damage normally and
he can choose to push the target 5 feet or attempt to knock
them prone. If he decides to push the target, it is moved 5
feet directly away from him. This movement does not
provoke attacks of opportunity, and the target must end this
move in a safe space it can stand in. If the monk decides to
attempt to knock the target prone, the target must make a
DC 15 Fortitude saving throw to avoid the effect. The monk
may not attempt a punishing kick more than once per round.
Combat Gear arrows (20), oil of darkness, potion of bull’s
strength, potion of cat’s grace, potion of cure light wounds
(4), potion of mage armour (2)
Abilities Str 18, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
SQ orc/ogre blood, wild empathy (‐1)
Orc/Ogre Blood (Ex) For all special abilities and effects, an orog
is considered an orc or ogre. For example, orogs can use
special ogre or orc weapons or magic items with racially
specific ogre or orc powers as if they were ogres or orcs.
Feats Boar Style, Combat ReflexesB, DodgeB, Intimidating
Prowess, Punishing KickB, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Skills as above plus Heal +7, Intimidate +11, Survival +11 (+12
tracking)
OROG INFANTRY SERGEANT CR 5 (XP 1 , 600)
This gray‐skinned, stocky humanoid has course dark hair and
dark eyes. It wears full plate armour and wields a greataxe.
Orog fighter 3
LE Medium humanoid (orc)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +6, Sense Motive +0
Speed 20 ft., base speed 30 ft.; ACP ‐4; Acrobatics ‐2 (‐6
jumping), Climb +7, Swim +7
AC 21, touch 12, flat‐footed 19; CMD 22
(+9 armour [mwk full plate], +2 Dex)
Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +4 (+5 vs. fear)
hp 55 (6 HD)
Space 5 ft.; Base Atk +5; CMB +10
Melee mwk greataxe (Power Attack [‐2/+6]) +12 (1d12+7/x3)
Ranged mwk composite longbow (range 110 ft.) +8 (1d8+5/x3)
Combat Gear arrows (20), potion of cure light wounds (2), potion
of cure moderate wounds, potion of expeditious retreat (2)
Abilities Str 21, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 7
SQ armour training (1), bravery (+1), orc/ogre blood
Orc/Ogre Blood (Ex) For all special abilities and effects, an orog
is considered an orc or ogre. For example, orogs can use
special ogre or orc weapons or magic items with racially
specific ogre or orc powers as if they were ogres or orcs.
Feats Iron Will, Power AttackB, Skill Focus (Perception),
Toughness, Weapon Focus (greataxe)B
Skills as above plus Knowledge (dungeoneering, engineering) +7,
Survival +6
I don't think the encounter was overly difficult but that being stated failed saves, controlling the battlefield, and splitting the party are great equalizers. Of course, I was merciful and not take AOO (some climbing out of water), nor did all the Orogs attack every round. You do have a werebear that CR 6 when you read the editor notes regarding the pathfinder conversion (unfortunately, he hasn't been able to hit.)
As far as the previous hobgoblins that was a previous encounter.
I do want to test out the playability of the ACG. If this were a straight fighter vs. your party battle there would be little challenge in that and that would make a rather boring encounter. String a few of those together and its a mundane module/campaign.
baldwin the merciful |
Why are Baldwin and Bug rolling 1d20 for damage? That a thing?
I have a die roll template that I created that has an error. Crud.
It looks like the red Orogs template was off but the good news is it only effected xavier on three hits:
AOO I rolled 16
damage: 1d12 + 7 ⇒ (1) + 7 = 8
Take the lesser roll of 8 HP
RD 3:
I hit twice for 12 and 9 HP
damage: 1d12 + 7 ⇒ (1) + 7 = 8
damage: 1d12 + 7 ⇒ (6) + 7 = 13
This was a wash.
The only other hit that I saw was on Targus and it did not beat his DR anyway.
Nathaniel Wyvrensting |
I have built a Bloodrager in case we get the chance to switch chars (i.e. DEATH!!)
No gear yet but the build is thought out.
At first I looked at his theory craft numbers and though 'Holy Crap!
Till I realised, while the build is Pretty Sick, I can get better numbers with a Pure Invulnerable Rager.
Looks like alot of fun though.
What I did notice is not all Bloodlines are created equal.
Destined and Arcane are far stronger than some of the others (or at least easier to build around).
I did note that the primalist archetype is a straight upgrade on a bloodrager in the same way a Quigong Monk is just a better monk.
On the face of it, it is about the same strength as a Sacred Servant Paladin With the Rage Subdomain and Eldritch Bloodline (Orc or Abyssal)
Except the paladin can heal himself and the Bloodrager cannot.
Race-Skilled Human
Traits- Fates Favored, Optimistic Gambler or Community Minded
1-Destined Bloodline, Bloodline Power-Destined Strike, Bloodrage,Indomitable StancePower Attack, H-Skill Focus: Perception
2-Armored Swiftness
3-Blood SanctuaryCombat Expertise
4-Blood Casting, Bloodline Power-Fated BloodRager +1, Eschew Materials
5-Armor Training +1Improved Trip
6-Bloodline Feat-Intimidating Prowess
7-Bloodline Spell (Shield), Blood Deflection, Combat Reflexes
8-Fated BloodRager +2, Bloodline Power-Lesser Beast Totem, Reckless Abandon, Skill Focus: Survival
9-Armor Training +2, Bloodline Feat-Weapon Focus (Nodachi) , Eldritch Heritage- Touch of Rage
10-Bloodline Spell (Blur)
11-Greater Bloodrage, Quicken SLA (Touch of Rage)
12-Fated BloodRager +3, Bloodline Feat- Improved Initiative, Bloodline Power-Beast Totem, Greater Beast Totem
13-Bloodline Spell (Protection from Energy), Armor Training +3, Dazing Assault
14-Indomitable Will
15-Bloodline Feat- Leadership, Improved Eldritch Heritage-Strength of the Beast (+4 Inherent to Strength)
16-Fated BloodRager +4, Bloodline Spell (Freedom of Movt), Bloodline Power-Come and Get Me, Guarded Stance, Skill Focus: Diplomacy
17-Armor Training +4,Tireless Bloodrage , Greater Eldritch Heritage- Power of Giants
18-Bloodline Feat-Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus: Diplomacy
19-(Strength of the Beast +6 Inherent to Strength), Raging Brutality
20-Fated BloodRager +5,Mighty Bloodrage, Bloodline Power-Superstition, Witchunter
Class Ability Description
Quiznab |
Add a skald to that so you can rage without fatigue and get the important rage powers sooner.
Quiznab |
I was thinking reckless abandon + the superstition & witch hunter chain would be good rage powers to grant. It seems you can pick and choose which ones your song grants, and the party can choose not to be affected. A long spear plus flagbearer and ultimately flag of kings would be nice. Arcane strike would be good and Probably power attack, but you need enough to hit to make that worth using. Lingering performance is probably a must since you will want saving finale, since that will save people's lives.
As usual with bards there are far too many good level 2 spells but I think Heroism, Blistering Invective and Mirror Image. Obviously haste at level 3.
There's spell kenning to consider as well.
baldwin the merciful |
What I'm going to do here is let everyone rest for the night and level up to 7th. Like I mentioned I want to see the ACG plays out, so this will let us explore these builds a bit further.
roll your HP here. Reroll 1's.
Also, if you get any new or expanded abilities let me know, so we can all be sure to watch out how those abilities work out in game play.