Aubrey's Other Eberron Campaign - The Unbinding (Inactive)

Game Master Aubrey the Malformed

Diatribe mode on :

If I must be good at diplomacy OOC, then Wultrum's player must be good at spell casting OOC. He must have actual theoretical knowledge of how the magic works.

Rehil's player must also be a thief, and understand how to disable traps and pick locks.

The diplomacy skill is there to tell the GM, and the other players, how good the character performed at Diplomacy. The Roleplaying is there to give the GM an idea of what was said, and the GM should then spin the delivery based on the skill of the character, not the skill of the player. Requiring the player to be diplomatic basically requires the Player to have all the skills of the Character.

I used to do the same thing, and I stopped it after I realized I was penalizing players for not being as smart/diplomatic/skilled as their characters. I have not once seen the GM demand that a player give detailed answers on how he picks a lock, or how he disables a trap.

A diplomatic check indicates how well the Character conveyed the desires of the Player, and the text the Player types is an indication of how he is going about it. If the diplomacy roll is good, the character delivered the concept in such a way that it was received well. If they blow it, the character delivered the concept in such a way that it was received ill.

Tal's words, by the player are the player's attempts to get across what the Player is trying to do. Tal, the Character, is diplomatic, and the GM should interpret those words in synch with the diplomatic check. The words are just words, they have no tone, no inflection, no facial expressions, nothing but text, to go with them.

The same words can be said multiple ways. For example.

"You are a wonderful and skilled person" can be a compliment, an insult, a wry commentary, or a deadpan mockery, depending on how they are said, the facial expressions, and so on. It also matters where the emphasis is in the sentence. If the emphasis is on You, then the implication is that a third person is not wonderful and skilled. If the emphasis is on Wonderful, the implication is that the person thinks they are skilled but horrible, and the speaker is reinforcing that they are a wonderful person.

I could go on, but the idea is that the text should be intepreted based on the check, and the facial expressions, social cues, inflection, and tone of voice used to convert the text into a diplomatic statement that matches the roll. Tal's comments about war could have been wry and sardonic, indicating he didn't think Wultrum was a big threat. Tal's comments on danger to the Warden's people could be interpreted as sincere concern that someone would get hurt.

Instead, the flat text is interpreted without any tone or inflection, given the worst possible meaning, and then used as a penalty to the diplomacy check. Basically, I should never post anything as text, and only ROLLPLAY rather than ROLEPLAY to avoid penalties.

/diatribe

I have explained why. If you have problems with the way I run this game, you can always leave.

Edit : Never mind, I think I'll just bow out. Everyone have fun.

Fine - thank you for your contribution.

Good gaming Tal

wow

Yep. That went sideways fast. :/
I hate to see a player bow out, but play style differences are a pretty common thing.

Not that it was asked, but for what it's worth, I had a similar reaction to Aubrey when I read Tal's post this morning. I actually thought to myself "Should that have been an Intimidate check?"

But right now, that's neither here nor there. A bit of character-to-character discussion could be helpful .. as Nalverren has already started up, I see. :)

Oh I am certainly aware that Wultram was playing it wrong tactic/strategy wise. ....

But Rehil figures that Wultram is aware that he was playing it wrong tactic/strategy wise. That's what got him pissed off. The Karrn comment was a cheap shot though.

As can be seen in the newest post. It is not excatly true(In his mind that is). Wultram thinks that playing nice might be better in the short term but playing servants to these people is a horrible decision in the long run. As you recall he walked out of that meeting and only tooth and nail agreed to play along for now. Granted his opinions and emotions on the subject certainly play a part in it too.

Yow! I missed all the posts on this page prior to my first.

Good luck out there, mdt.

Just chipping in on the diplomacy thing. The player shouldn't have to be Shakespeare or Madelaine Albright, but the substance of what they say does matter to me as a DM. Sometimes it's best to add an OOC comment about what you're trying to accomplish and your tone, so that the DM can interpret what you're trying to do.

Tal's post started fine, and I thought ended well, but somewhere in the middle the word's sounded threatening.

mdt made the comment that I should take the die roll and ignore the content of what he wrote. As this is a roleplaying game where we play characters, that is simply not going to happen in this game - otherwise we might as well just roll dice. I don't know where mdt was from and whether it was a problem with English, or is in his head the nuance was completely different, but is a sense it doesn't really matter - it was quite hard to construe what he wrote in any other way, especially given Tal's previous behaviour, and it is possible for people to misunderstand eachother in life.

I don't expect people to be incredibly diplomatic, in the same way I don't expect thom to be an expert in locksmithing - that argument is just stupid. I do expect people to have a general grasp of what they are trying to achieve, however - the essence of diplomacy is just being polite, and Tal wasn't really able to do that. The other PCs managed it (OK, not Wultram, but he's a necromancer, not a paladin).

To be honest, mdt had something of a habit of - at least - querying my rulings. It was becoming a bit tiresome, and probably it is best for both of us that he moved on. I really didn't want to have to have the conversation about where he stood with Tal's vows and the potential loss of paladin powers, which likely would have ended the same way.

My apologies, guys. I'm still here. This week has been crazy. I'll try to post tonight or early tomorrow.

I'll be away this weekend, back on Sunday night.

First thing first: the following isn't a complaint, Wultram's RP seems on point to me and I'm just a bit unsure on how to proceed.

Thing is, I don't think Ashshar would like ti abandon his friends -specially Cole since he last hitted Kalaktua- but he surely would not leave without learning more about the prophecy or what the Council has to say.

Sooo, I don't know what the f&## should I do.

From Cole's perspective, Wultram is the dissenting party here. Group loyalty is important, but that's a two-way street. I can appreciate Wultram's decision to stick to his guns here, but unless the rest of the group also wants to take that path, Cole is willing to let Wultram walk out alone on this one. (Well, mostly alone. He does have his unliving buddy.)

Yeah I wanted to make it clear that I do not want to dictate choices for other people with that last statement. Previously these people might have been left alone as long as they stayed out of his way. Now Wultram fully intends to kill everyone responsible, granted with him shooting for immortality it is not something he intends to pursue right now.

Yeah, I wasn't sure how to proceed, but if there's a guy around who says he won't promise not to attack people, it's a bit of a no-brainer from a public order perspective.

to be fair his main argument was that he would not be able to defend himself. They were not asking an oath not to attack people, they were asking for no harm done. Two very different things. That all said it is not like Wultram would be willing to take any oath to these people just out of principle of the matter.

Ooo. I like the RP. Serious OOC questions though.

Aubrey, are you willing to run a split campaign for some length of time?

Does Wultram still plan to rejoin the party in Regalport?

What will Tal do?

If it's OK with Aubrey, I'm willing to split up.

to be fair his main argument was that he would not be able to defend himself. They were not asking an oath not to attack people, they were asking for no harm done. Two very different things. That all said it is not like Wultram would be willing to take any oath to these people just out of principle of the matter.

That's why Rehil answered the way he did. "not to start trouble." I don't think in this instance, that Aubrey would force a choice between oath breaking and self defense, but Rehil hasn't forgotten how we got here. The 10 Intelligence 8 Charisma rogue is just disguising it better than Wultram. He wants to leave a self defense option, and doesn't want to outright lie.

I'm willing to split the party. Initially I thought I wouldn't, but it felt kind of unfair to force the rest of you out with Wultram as you were cooperating with the authorities. I've had some thoughts anyway how to handle it. Ahaahahaha! Oh yes, such beautiful thoughts...

As for Tal, he's going with Wultram. Which from a metagame perspective, given Tal's current status and the fate of healers past, should probably worry Wultram. Plus, he's a deeply screwed up paladin whose best friend is a necromancer - go figure.

By the way, last time I looked Wultram's stats were not on his profile. I'd be grateful if he updated at some stage so they remain current.

Well originally our stats were going to change due to gear so I did not bother updating this one. This happened when the account issues if you recall. The one called Wultram Denka has all the proper stats, well with the exception of XP count.

Regarding Regalport, depends largely what comes up at the surface and when contact is reestablished. But likely the answer is yes, though any relationship with anyone involved in this 'visit' are beyond repairing with him so that might be another thing that would affect his choices.

With that I am off to get some sleep.

Guys, we have a volunteer to join and take up playing one of the characters who are effectively player-less right now - Tal and Vaard. I assume you are fine with this, in which case I'll suggest he introduces himself here. Given the nature of the game - Mythic PCs caused by a singular event, and therefore probably unrepeatable, and therefore creating a "new" Mythic character might not make sense in-game - I suggested he takes over one of the orphan PCs.

There are basically two potential PCs to chose - Vaard and Tal. In terms of PC role, we are short a healer, although the artificer can fill in at a pinch. Tal is currently filling that slot, but I'm happy for either character to be completely rebuilt in terms of character class - i.e. either Vaard or Tal can fill it if necessary. Also, if being the party healer doesn't appeal much, we can see how far the party can get without a full-time healer - frankly, being the healer for this party has typically been like signing your own death warrant anyway, or being the drummer in Spinal Tap. In practical terms, if you are Tal, you are going with Wultram to the great unknown upstairs, whereas if you are Vaard you are staying in the city for the moment and checking out the Draconic Prophecy downstairs.

Greetings all. I am happy to take over whichever character the PCs prefer to see remain in the game.

I think it should be pointed out that Vaard has been a lot more reserved and as such you would have a lot more freedom personality wise. Where as Tal has pretty established views and values. That is not to say that Vaard is a blank slate far from it, just more so than Tal.

Anyways welcome aboard.

Well, being Storyteller I won't complain at all. I've seen him take up another character whose player disappeared and gotta say, he's doing a hell of a job.

Now on the matter of death... that's something I've been thinking about. I mean, mythic people aren't exactly common. To be honest, I have no freaking idea how I'd proceed if I were the DM.

And back to Tal/Vaard and Storyteller! If my opinion counts, I'd say Vaard will have prove to be easier to take up. Not because Tal is hard to roleplay or anything, which may be yhe case, but Vaard's silence means he hasn't rustled anyone's jimmies. Neither ours nor NPCs'. In any case, please choose whoever you feel you'll enjiy most.

And Wultram ninja'd me. Damned pesky necromancers

Agreed. Welcome aboard, Shadowteller. Or do we just call you Shadow? :)

I agree with Wultram, but we're happy to continue helping you work though your decision if you like. Just let us know.

I think that the above advice is very sound. That said, as a slight counterweight, Wultram will effectively be up there without a fellow PC to turn to, and interact with, just the DM and a DMNPC. But on the other hand, I think you would be much more able to put your own stamp on Vaard. Tal has been roleplayed in a very specific way and it has had ramifications on the game, which means he's wandering around with a lot of baggage from a game-continuity perspective. You might not want to get into that. Vaard has been quite quiet as his player sort of faded away, so he's been very much in the background ever since this party got to its current location. So he is on balance a better choice, I suspect, given he really hasn't done anything (like alienating powerful NPCs) at all for a while.

But honestly, it is down to the Shadowy One and what he prefers. Please let us know. As I mentioned above, there are possible considerations regarding party balance, but I consider these to be relatively minor. And I'm happy for either character to be rebuilt from the ground up if necessary.

I'll take the PCs advice in this instance and go with Vaard.

I'll get a new Avatar up tonight, might take me a few days to read through the most recent scene but by this weekend I should be good to go to move forward as a PC with the group.

Thank you all for the advice.

EDIT: If the group needs healing I could s!+@ around the build a bit but I do not want to (from a storyline perspective) remove powers that he utilized IC which had an impact on the game as that would not make much sense and I am big believer in story continuity.

Honestly, I'm not bothered a lot by that. Vaard (and Ashshar) have already changed character class once, so another change won't make much difference. Frankly, it's been ages since they've been in combat (which is an unusual state of affairs for this game) I can't remember what the hell he did in the past anyway. Also, although I gave permission for Vaard's player to use the warlord class I'm not overly enamoured by it as I don't own the relevant book and he hasn't really set combat on fire with it (compared to, say, Cole) - I'd prefer something a bit more vanilla and familiar. Go with what you are comfortable with.

Agreed. Welcome aboard, Shadowteller. Or do we just call you Shadow? :)

I agree with Wultram, but we're happy to continue helping you work though your decision if you like. Just let us know.

No one's ever called me Shadowteller but its a nice mix of the Shadow and the Storyteller :-)

----

Alright, based on the DM and PC input I will tale up the mantle of Vaard. His classes are listed as Humanoid (that's a new one can't find it) 2, Warlord 4, Marshall 1.

As the Marshall is the Mythic class I'll leave that one alone. For the 6 base class levels I'll either go Cleric or Oracle. I have played a LOT of Clerics but never one in Eberron before so this should be a fun build.

Edit: The Herald Caller is an interesting Archtype for Clerics BUT it is essentially a Cleric Summoner, is that something that you would find more bothersome than interesting DM? If so I can go in a different direction.

Second Edit: Vaard had a Martial bent, maybe I'll do a Monk/Cleric.

Alright, based on the DM and PC input I will tale up the mantle of Vaard. His classes are listed as Humanoid (that's a new one can't find it) 2, Warlord 4, Marshall 1.

Those 2 humanoid levels come from Aubrey using this kind of lizardfolk (I think I got it right, I'd rather have Aubrey explaining the fine details) instead of the ARG one.

Which basically means you have 2 Hit Die worth of being a Lizardfolk, and the other 4 you can play with. So very much like me.

And now comes the weird question... is there any reason I should be one level behind other than the most probable (I f!#*ed up level up when I had to and profile didn't get updated?)? I mean, it's possible I should be one behind... I just don't remember it and had just realised I'm level 5.

No, everyone should be the same level. The humanoid levels are simply the two HD for being a lizardman, as per the Bestiary.

Being relatively 'primitive' in culture, oracle might be a better fit. Vaard has some nice armour coming so monk levels might be wasted.

Although on second thoughts, the oracle's curse might be problematic as Vaard hasn't really ever had an infirmity. So maybe cleric is better after all. I don't really have a problem with summoned creatures if they don't get in the way too much. But a lot of cleric archetypes seem to interfere with basic clerical healing abilities so I would add a note of caution.

Welcome, Storyteller Shadow.

Happy to have you.

I'll just say the Vaard doesn't have to go down with the rest of the party. He could choose to go to the surface.

Rehil also has a standing offer to accompany Wultram.

Okay, corrected my serious mistake. Only thing I had to choose was Slayer Talent, for which I took the Rogue Talent Weapon Training and chose Longbow.

So, HP and I can forget the time it skipped my mind I had to level up.
Ashshar's level 6 HP: 1d10 ⇒ 9

It would be quite funny, but maybe also in keeping with the gist of the story, if Vaard became a cleric of the Silver Flame. Maybe he's been quiet because he has been having a religious conversion. Just throwing the idea out there.

Yes, that's a good point, Vaard is not required to stay in the city and could easily go with Wultram. As could Rehil.

However, those who leave won't get to take possession of the goodies they ordered. It's a bit of a metagame consideration but worth bearing in mind.

Which is the perfect reason for us to kill those dragons and take their hoards :p I at least was full aware that was a lost cause when I made my choice. Not like we haven't been slugging around in 2nd level gear maybe 3rd at best anyway.

yeah if we dont have a healer, Nalverren could fill in as long as he gets some downtime, and perhaps gets a share or partial share of the loot of the departing character, he could make some wands/potions to fill in that gap. it'd cost the party some action economy that a cleric wouldnt, but it gives us utility in other ways.

OK, so no Monk levels and no Oracle and no Archtypes that cut back on healing. Here then are the ideas I have:

1. An Inquisitor of Dol Dorn of the Sovereign Host, a nod to the Martial bent of the character as currently constructed. That was part of the idea of why I was considering Monk so the hand to hand aspect of the character as is would remain.

2. A Cleric of the Silver Flame Herald Caller. Plus, Spontaneous Summoning spells. Minus, no spontaneous healing spells. Extra Channeling Feats could offset that though.

3. A Cleric of the Traveler no Archtype (the Trickery and Travel Domain are some of my favorites).

4. Really Embrace his Martial Bent and run a Paladin of the Silver Flame. My focus for Feats would be on Channeling to increase his ability to heal while still being an effective frontliner. The Archtype Holy Tactician gives Teamwork Feats, not sure if that is something the group has been utilizing in battles. I see that DM Aubrey mentioned the campaign is more story driven so the Teamwork Feats may not be a useful option.

I will let all of you decide what fits best and pursue that build. Thanks again for all of your input!

Also, I'll have to shift his stats around a bit as that Wisdom is dreadful!

They all sound fun. 1 or 3 would make you our first 'healer' who wasn't in conflict with Wultram philosophically. Obviously, though we're not adverse to some party tension.

Shadowteller:

I had some thoughts about what gods Vaard could worship. These are just ideas, not a requirement.

The lizardfolk worship the Dragon Gods, a pretty nebulous concept which is sort-of a mix up of garbled Sovereign Host/Dark Six and druidic magic. That's fairly wide in terms of what you could do with that, so you could more or less choose what domains you fancy provided they seemed even vaguely appropriate for a stone age culture - for example, Vaard is a warrior so you can choose War, you could choose any of the elemental domains (breath types), you could consider Animal for all the dinosaurs, or Plant for the jungle, and so on and so on. If you can rationalise Travel and Trickery as part of that, that would be perfectly cool. While he has been chosen by the Silver Flame for "something", Vaard could rationalise that as simply being an extension of the Dragon Gods - after all, that wouldn't be entirely untrue given the link between the Silver Flame, couatls and dragons. It is unlikely there would be any significant clash with Wultram as the lizardfolk are a pragmatic lot.

If you go Silver Flame, it would probably be the case it would still be wrapped up with lizardfolk pragmatism too. I assume you are familar with the Ghaashk'kala orcs of the Demon Wastes who worship Kalok Shash, the Binding Flame. They are effectively woshippers of the Silver Flame, while having virtually nothing to do with either the guys in Krezent or Thrane. Given Vaard's somewhat unique experiences, he could be the founder member of a sort of mash-up Silver Flame-Dragon Gods hybrid. Again, I'd consider being reasonably free with the domains there, although they would have to reflect roughly (subject to discussion, in other words) the Silver Flame's aims. I also wouldn't necessary expect a hard Lawful Good alignment, since the warriors of the Ghaashk'kala are barbarians and therefore cannot be LG. There might be a bit more friction with Wultram, but I wouldn't expect Vaard to carry heavy doctrinal baggage.

Also please note that the PC who remain behind will receive quite a lot of gear. The discussion, and how to calculate your allowance, is above, towards the bottom of this page. Assuming Vaard stays behind, he will need to determine his allocation.

Which is the perfect reason for us to kill those dragons and take their hoards :p

Good luck with that.

Herald Caller DOES NOT prevent me from spontaneous casting of Cure spells just another spontaneous casting feature.

I lose a second domain and medium armor and shield proficiency. As a Lizardfolk, I likely would not be using medium armor anyway.

I will go Silver Flame (spontaneous conversion style!) Cleric (Herald Caller). As Vaard grew up a warrior I will take the War Domain as per the DM post above.

Entertaining retaining 1 level of Warlord to reflect his Martial Bent though having to have a high wisdom will come at the cost of the characters current high strength. His current magic item gives him a 12 strength and a buff can give him the power he needs if forced into hand to claw so it makes sense.

So Humanoid 2 (Lizardfolk).
Cleric 3 (Herald Caller).
Warlord 1 (Steelfist Commando).
Marshall 1.

Next level I will switch to Hierophant.

I will remain behind and work through the gear allotment. I'll try to have this ready by Saturday so I can jump in by Sunday once the DM approves the new build.

Revised Alignment Neutral Good.

Just a few comments.

You have got a nice free masterwork breastplate coming with bragging rights over how you killed the dragon turtle from which it came. Sure you want to give that up? He could be quite a handy clerical tank with his +5 natural armour bonus, a breastplate and a bit of Shield of Faith (and hell, why not, throw in a shield too, obviously emblazoned with the symbol of the Silver Flame). It's not a biggie but just want to point it out, Herald Caller is still fine.

Also, since I don't have the book and since he was originally a Fighter anyway, you could take a level of Fighter instead of Warlord. No funky moves but a free feat.

Also, just checking, but can you swap mythic path? I'm not so sure you can without a specific feat. You may prefer to just go Hierophant.

Just a few comments.

You have got a nice free masterwork breastplate coming with bragging rights over how you killed the dragon turtle from which it came. Sure you want to give that up? He could be quite a handy clerical tank with his +5 natural armour bonus, a breastplate and a bit of Shield of Faith (and hell, why not, throw in a shield too, obviously emblazoned with the symbol of the Silver Flame). It's not a biggie but just want to point it out, Herald Caller is still fine.

Also, since I don't have the book and since he was originally a Fighter anyway, you could take a level of Fighter instead of Warlord. No funky moves but a free feat.

Also, just checking, but can you swap mythic path? I'm not so sure you can without a specific feat. You may prefer to just go Hierophant.

OK! With a level of Fighter I'll have the Medium Armor Proficiency so I can use that Masterwork Breastplate! Works out nicely really.

I did not realize that I could not change Mythic Paths (this will be the first Mythic PC I ever played). I'll go just go Hierophant.

I think the submission is starting to become clear.

Humanoid (Lizardfolk) 2.
Fighter 1.
Cleric 3 (Herald Caller).
Hierophant 1.

For Lizardfolk, is Multiattack considered a Level 1 Feat or a Bonus Feat?

You can "multipath" with mythic it costs a mythic feat and it must be taken at first tier.(This is from memory but I am like 95% sure that is correct.)

If you are going with battle-cleric style of build, then it might be very much worth it to take with champion/guardian. If more casting oriented then Hierophant is more than enough.

Yes, I think that's right - Child of Two Paths or something like that I think is the feat.

I think Multiattack is a lvl 1 feat, not bonus I'm afraid.

I think it's just called Dual Path. Cole took it so he could go Guardian / Champion.