Wizards and Sorcerers: Duel to the Death!
You begin play in opposite corners of a 100' x 100' flat, featureless cube. The surface is mown grass on firm, dry land. It's a sunny, cloudless day, with a light breeze at 72 degrees farenheit. You can move and teleport within the cube, but not outside of it. The cube further extends 50' down into the soil beneath you (so it's not really a cube. It's 100 x 100 x 150', 50' of it below ground. ). The boundaries are permanent walls of pure magic, hard as steel, created by a powerful god, and you can't dispel or otherwise escape them. Air moves through it normally, and all spells work as normal within the boundaries.
*10th level characters, single-classed as wizards or sorcerers. Any race from the PHB.
*Everyone is true Neutral. Alignment spells won't be much use. You can only escape by reducing your opponent to 0 - their con score hit points.
*15 pt. buy. Two traits; one magic, one general. Feats and skill points as normal for your race/class.
*No stats above 18 or below 7 before racial and level adjustments.
*40 hp before adjustments.
*You get the standard 62,000 gp. for a 10th level character, and can have any item or class spell listed in the PRD (for commonality and ease of reference).
*No one item can be worth more than 15,500 gp.
*No partially-charged items.
*No crafting. Pay book retail for everything.
*You begin with your full daily roster of spells, and haven't cast ANY.
*Have a full list of all your feats, your gear, its cost and weight, and the spells you know or have prepared in all slots.
Both mages begin in opposite corners, aware of each other, and roll initiative. One of you MUST DIE.
The winner will be immediately restored to full health and spells, and defend his champion status until he's defeated or gets bored with his awesome superiority. Any charged items used are also restored to full.
This is just for fun, not to prove anything. We are simply going to delight in brutal killings, like we used to.
The mage who gets initiative has a definite advantage, but is it enough to win? Do you cast offensively first, or do you buff?
We'll start with one wizard and one sorcerer, winner goes on until defeated. Post a build for peer review, then wait in line for your chance at death or glory. First come, first served. Defeated mages may not try again, though players who submit new mages can get in line again. If you don't show up for your turn, you'll be skipped.
Show us your mage-killing uber-death mage!
Here's the MAP.
My money is on the diviner wizard. :)
With that said I will try to get a build in that is not a diviner wizard.
Why are things such as targeting ability scores or energy drain not allowed?
Your map needs to have the permissions changed also. Right now the only person who can view it is you.
Sorry. Map is fixed. Everyone's neutral. You can certainly use whatever spells you want from the PRD in that context.
Diviners have a definite advantage. But is it enough? One-shot, one kill? Maybe. We'll see.
Are you all afraid? Who dares test their magic against Ulgar the Undefeatable?
Bah! Cowards, all!
Think you should go max HP, vs average. Give everybody just a bit more staying power.
I might build something, just to play with a few concepts.
Not sure that I would want to post my build since others would be able to build using that information
That's a question I had, too. We would want verifiable legal builds, but peeking at the other guy's build/spells would give you enough info to counter his strategy.
I'd suggest having it available, maybe in herolab or whatever you use, and posting it under a spoiler if someone calls a foul. People not playing that caster can verify its validity. Perhaps I (and maybe a few others) could act as "judges," and you could PM your builds to us, get them approved as being within the rules, then just line up for the carnage.
Monkeygod's suggestion is good, too. Should we amend it to 60 hp, in the interest of longer fights? That would be more fun.
Again, this is just for fun. It would be interesting to see how things work out in this little challenge.
Another thought. Let's say you built your guy and he died right away. That's a lot of work for not much action. Maybe you could use his build and rename him "Blasty McBlasterson II," or "Summony De La Summonmiester Jr.," or "New and Improved Lord of Destruction," or something like that. Switch a few things around, resubmit, and voila, back in the meatgrinder.
PMing one player who acts soley as sort of caretaker is a great idea. When your PC comes up, he posts your stats and combat begins. In order to make sure everything is legal, there should be a minor pause before each round, in which fellow posters/players makes sure that the build is legal and correct.
For the sake of fairness, I think each fight should be best two out of three. A tenth level caster takes a bit of thought and time, more so for a tourey style game. If this is truly just for fun, 2 out of 3 is a good way to go. This way, if somebody gets really lucky on a die roll, or does really poorly on one, they aren't dead in a round.
I'll rock in for a bit of fun :)
PMing one player who acts soley as sort of caretaker is a great idea. When your PC comes up, he posts your stats and combat begins. In order to make sure everything is legal, there should be a minor pause before each round, in which fellow posters/players makes sure that the build is legal and correct.
For the sake of fairness, I think each fight should be best two out of three. A tenth level caster takes a bit of thought and time, more so for a tourey style game. If this is truly just for fun, 2 out of 3 is a good way to go. This way, if somebody gets really lucky on a die roll, or does really poorly on one, they aren't dead in a round.
It's like you're reading my mind. I was thinking that, too, for the same reasons.
Proposed revisions: 60 hp before adjustments. Better chance of multiple rounds that way, instead of one lucky wipe out.
Best 2 out of 3.
Dice are fickle things, and sound strategies can go awry due to a few bad (or good) rolls. We've all seen it! LOL
If I'm the "judge," you PM me your stats. I identify you ( Elf wizard diviner, or Human sorcerer cross-blooded arcane-rakshasa, or whatever), and we go from there. If the players request, we can describe what they appear to be wearing or carrying (visible items, weapons, etc.).
I'm guessing everybody would spend the gold to have permanent see invisibility, and maybe other effects. Anything a 10th level caster can do with that spell is fine. Just pay for it. Sorcerers would have to pay the cost of the scroll, unless they know it (yeah, right!).
As for the number of spells a wizard has in his spellbook, I don't really know, but there should be a reasonable limit. Any suggestions?
I'd like another person or 2 to help with the officiating. This was just an idea I had. More involvement would make for more fun. 3 "judges" would be ideal.
For spells I think a reasonable way to look at it is as follows:
Spells from creation and levelling are free;
Additional spells must be purchased at the cost of scroll creation value (as though you paid a colleague the costs to scribe a scroll for you, then copied from that scroll into your spellbook).
Spells gained from extra arcana feats, or favored class bonuses are free.
How does that look?
I'm open to assisting in adjudication / mapping / etc - though I'll wait and see how many we end up with before final committal.
I think anyone entering the tourney should have a build posted by a certain day. Once you say your build is final, which includes prepared spells listed for wizards, at least for the first fight there are no take backs. That way if your opponent sees your character sheet because he got to judge whether or not it was legal for competition he can't adjust his character.
I also like Mark Sweetman's idea. If I lose I will gladly DM a round.
I think max hp should be used.
One question:How are we going to judge aiming a fireball while someone is visually impaired?
One question:How are we going to judge aiming a fireball while someone is visually impaired?
I put a fireball on the map. If an unseen opponent was in it, he'd have to save. The person casting it wouldn't necessarily know if it hit. If the caster can't see, I guess he'd just put it wherever inside the cube and hope he gets lucky. if he tosses it in a random direction, it will hit a wall and explode, so there will be plenty of excitement at all times. Gotta please the fans!
The judges will have to make some calls, I'm sure. There are too many possibilities to account for all of them ahead of time.
This is one situation where everyone should follow the same rules with regard to AoE spells.
I would say the opposing player gets to PM the judges to let them know where his character's real location without moving it on the map. That way the "blind" player can't cheat.
I might throw my hat in the ring.
Just to make sure...you're not allowing prestige classes correct?
Correct. No PrCs, no multi-classing.
This is one situation where everyone should follow the same rules with regard to AoE spells.
I would say the opposing player gets to PM the judges to let them know where his character's real location without moving it on the map. That way the "blind" player can't cheat.
Sounds good. That would slow things down, but the blind guy getting a lucky hit couldn't be accused of cheating, either.
I should have a build sent to your PM courtesy of herolab later today.
Diviner wins initiative. Turns opposing arcanist to stone, walks off in victory.
Next!
6th level spell, last I checked. I hope the scroll works AND the other guy fails the save.
I hear you mathpro. I just got done with my guy. I don't want to go out in the first round so I was really careful.
I just PM'd my character to HRE.
My Dwarven Wizard is slowly coming along.... hopefully should be going a slightly different direction :)
Plenty! We're just starting.
I'm thinking perhaps we should put some limits on a few things. There's the treasure limit, but, as mentioned before, a scroll of flesh to stone could end things right away. That's a neat trick, but hey, you might pull off a time stop from a scroll, too. Auto-wins from items is kinda boring in this context. That's fair in a real game, where the character probably went to great pains to get the scroll and it matters for the adventure, but this is a more static one-on-one thing.
Perhaps we should limit items to those the caster could make herself, given the right feats. IOW, no scrolls or other items made by a caster of higher than 10th level.
What I'm trying to encourage is some "real" spellcasting duels, relying on the casters' abilities, rather than simple reliance on items. It then becomes a battle of one-shot gimmicks, rather than a struggle between mighty mages pitting their powers against each other by casting their spells.
I'm a little torn on improved familiars for the same reason. "My mephit uses a wand of ______." Again, it's fair in a standard game, but we end up making everybody pretty much have to have a familiar to keep it even, since mage 1 gets 2 spells a round, and mage 2 doesn't.
I'm open to any thoughts on the subject.
Items of CL 10th or less sounds ok to me.
Familiars are an interesting issue - though I personally wouldn't have an issue with allowing improved familiars. Wands are not going to be cheap, so it's a fair investment to get a familiar casting with one - for potentially questionable efficacy.
I'm willing to be the checker on builds, since I won't be partcipating.
You can PM them to me and I can certify the legality.
Or a checker. Having two or three is probably a good idea.
Thanks!
D20 Magi aren't really built for drawn out dueling. They've got magic bombs but relatively little in the name of defenses. It really does boil down to who either fails the first disabling save or gets blown to atoms by the first spell.
The reason you can see such cinematic duels in the movies is that for the most part spellcasters on film aren't really that good in hurting each other.
You're right. I'm guessing most fights would be very short. The casters in this little test will have 80 or more hps, so one-shotting with blasts is unlikely. We should get 2-3 rounds out of it. SoS spells either work or don't, so casting silence could either shut the guy down, or have no effect. He might have a way to counter that condition, too. It'll be crazy random.
It's a little analogous to drag racing, where evenly-matched cars race in a straight line for just a few seconds. The race is usually won by whoever gets the best launch. The last guy off the line can't catch up.
An adventuring caster is more like an off-road racer. He has to hold up under a variety of hazards. A Baja racer has to manage resources to make it to the finish. Too slow, and you lose. Too fast, and you crash or break your vehicle. Those guys carry tools and spare tires. The race is long enough that a minor setback like a blown tire =/= losing.
This is a different sort of challenge. All we know is that one of you will die. I'm anticipating a lot of luck and a little creativity are what you need.
Plenty! We're just starting.
I'm thinking perhaps we should put some limits on a few things. There's the treasure limit, but, as mentioned before, a scroll of flesh to stone could end things right away. That's a neat trick, but hey, you might pull off a time stop from a scroll, too. Auto-wins from items is kinda boring in this context. That's fair in a real game, where the character probably went to great pains to get the scroll and it matters for the adventure, but this is a more static one-on-one thing.
Perhaps we should limit items to those the caster could make herself, given the right feats. IOW, no scrolls or other items made by a caster of higher than 10th level.
What I'm trying to encourage is some "real" spellcasting duels, relying on the casters' abilities, rather than simple reliance on items. It then becomes a battle of one-shot gimmicks, rather than a struggle between mighty mages pitting their powers against each other by casting their spells.
I'm a little torn on improved familiars for the same reason. "My mephit uses a wand of ______." Again, it's fair in a standard game, but we end up making everybody pretty much have to have a familiar to keep it even, since mage 1 gets 2 spells a round, and mage 2 doesn't.
I'm open to any thoughts on the subject.
Most magic item's power is not really tied to caster level. As an example a 1st level pearl of power has a caster level of 17. The only things that would be an issue are scrolls or staves.
I will send mine as soon as we clear up the level 10 item issue, along with notes on things HL does not calculate. I guess I should let HL know about it also. :)
Most magic item's power is not really tied to caster level. As an example a 1st level pearl of power has a caster level of 17. The only things that would be an issue are scrolls or staves.
True. Staves are beyond the budget anyway, so I guess we can just say no scrolls higher than CL 10, and it's all good.
Also, is the gp limit of 1/4 the budget (15,500) for one item okay? If it were raised to 16,000, we might see a better variety of more potent items, like belts and such. It seems to be a big cutoff price for many items. Some GMs do 1/4, others 1/3 or 1/2.
I would have preferred 16,000. :)
That makes the +4 stat items available, which can be expected by 10th level.
I would have preferred 16,000. :)
That makes the +4 stat items available, which can be expected by 10th level.
Yeah, let's at least make it 16,000. Casters want to live 2 rounds.
Thanks. I will redo my character and send a copy to you and Lazar.
I doesn't seem that a lot of people are chomping at the bit to do this, but I think that once we get started, it'll catch on a little better. I really have no idea as to what it will look like, but reusing the drag racer analogy here, there will be some thrilling moments, and you'll miss it if you blink.
I'll revise the rules using the wise suggestions here, and Mr. Swagger was good to go when I looked at his mage.
Make sure your initiative is in there with your combat info. It's the first number we'll need. LOL
The judge will pre-announce the mages, identifying class and race, along with a brief description of what they look like: clothes (including armor), weapons, and any other obvious items. The judge will roll and announce initiative, then the battle begins.
Mages may roll spellcraft checks to identify spells cast without obvious effects under spoilers, and the judge will give them an answer under a spoiler. We're trusting players to play like honest adults, and not peek under spoilers not addressed to them during combat.
It would look like this:
MAGE A: I cast
MAGE B: Spellcraft to identify spell A just cast.
JUDGE: MAGE B:
OK?
The players can post their own spoilers to keep things moving if you don't mind. That is what we did for a PVP I was in before. Waiting for a judge after every spell will make things really slow. When I did these in the past people would start disappearing when the game got to slow.
Another thing is that people that know the game well will know the spell anyway once they see the effect. They just have to stay honest and not metagame.
I think more people are not jumping because we are still ironing the rules out.
My character will have to be redone since 16K is allowed for magic items now. Since I seem to be one of the few I think I have time though. I will wait until the rules are finalized before I redo him though.
Example:
Player A :
Charm Person
If player B rolls high enough he gets to look at the spoiler.
Example:
Player A :** spoiler omitted **If player B rolls high enough he gets to look at the spoiler.
Very good.
Here are the revised rules so far. Any suggestions?
You begin play in opposite corners of a 100' x 100' flat, featureless cube. The surface is mown grass on firm, dry land. It's a sunny, cloudless day, with a light breeze at 72 degrees farenheit. You can move and teleport within the cube, but not outside of it. The cube further extends 50' down into the soil beneath you (so it's not really a cube. It's 100 x 100 x 150', 50' of it below ground. ). The boundaries are permanent walls of pure magic, impermeable as steel, created by the gods, and you can't dispel or otherwise escape them. Air moves through it normally, and all spells work as normal within the boundaries.
*10th level characters, single-classed as wizards or sorcerers. No multiclassing or prestige classes.
*Any race from the PHB.
*Everyone's alignment is true neutral.
*You can only escape by reducing your opponent to 0 - their con score hit points.
*15 pt. buy. Two traits; one magic, one general. Feats, ability score increases and skill points as normal for your race/class/level.
*No stats above 18 or below 7 before racial and level adjustments.
*60 (max) hp before adjustments.
*You get the standard 62,000 gp. for a 10th level character, and can have any item or class spell listed in the PRD .
*You may have no items (such as scrolls) that contain spells higher than CL 10.
*No one item can be worth more than 16,000 gp.
*No partially-charged items.
*No crafting. Pay book retail for everything.
*You begin with your full daily roster of spells, and haven't cast ANY.
*You have nothing in your hands at the start of your first turn.
*Have a full list of all your feats, your gear, its cost and weight, and the spells you know or have prepared in all slots.
Both mages begin in opposite corners, aware of each other, and roll initiative. One of you MUST DIE.
The winner will be immediately restored to full health and spells, and defend his champion status until he's defeated or gets bored with his awesome superiority. Any charged items used are also restored to full.
This line needs to be removed IMHO. It implies applying negative levels or reducing constitution won't kill them among other things.
"*You can only escape by reducing your opponent to 0 - their con score hit points. "
If you use an item(consumable) do you get it back after the fight at full capacity? I ask because if someone wins 5 fights they will no longer have 62000 worth of material if they have things like potions or wands that get use up, but the new person will.
Unless I missed something I think everything should be ok. I will make version 2 of my character and send him out either today or tomorrow, which is really just editing. :)
Bump.
Now that the rules are ironed out I guess we can see if anyone wants to try it.
Okay. Final revision:
You begin play in opposite corners of a 100' x 100' flat, featureless cube. The surface is mown grass on firm, dry land. It's a sunny, cloudless day, with a light breeze at 72 degrees farenheit. You can move and teleport within the cube, but not outside of it. The cube further extends 50' down into the soil beneath you (so it's not really a cube. It's 100 x 100 x 150', 50' of it below ground. ). The boundaries are permanent walls of pure magic, impermeable as steel, created by the gods, and you can't dispel or otherwise escape them. Air moves through it normally, and all spells work as normal within the boundaries.
*10th level characters, single-classed as wizards or sorcerers. No multiclassing or prestige classes.
*Any race from the PHB.
*Everyone's alignment is true neutral.
*15 pt. buy. Two traits; one magic, one general. Feats, ability score increases and skill points as normal for your race/class/level.
*No stats above 18 or below 7 before racial and level adjustments.
*60 (max) hp before adjustments.
*You get the standard 62,000 gp. for a 10th level character, and can have any item or class spell listed in the PRD .
*You may have no items (such as scrolls) that contain spells higher than CL 10.
*No one item can be worth more than 16,000 gp.
*No partially-charged items.
*No crafting. Pay book retail for everything.
*You begin with your full daily roster of spells, and haven't cast ANY.
*You have nothing in your hands at the start of your first turn.
*Have a full list of all your feats, your gear, its cost and weight, and the spells you know or have prepared in all slots.
Both mages begin in opposite corners, aware of each other, and roll initiative. One of them MUST DIE.
The winner will be immediately restored to full health and spells, and defend his champion status until he's defeated or gets bored with his awesome superiority. Any charged items used are also restored to full.
Mr. Swagger is ready with a human sorcerer. Who will brave a battle to the death with this worthy foe? PM a wizard or sorcerer to me or one of the other volunteer judges, and we'll start a game thread.
Fight with valor! Die with honor!
I do need to do a revision, but it would only take about 15 minutes. I am just waiting to see if anyone is interested before I do so.