Much like the enchanted clothing, I personally don't care if Sparel got a 4th HOPF via whichever method he used.
However, if the rest of the group disagrees, say so now.
"I have a bonus feat post 20th level, which i notated as such. I used it for a HOPF feat." Is not what I would call an explanation.
How are you getting a bonus feat post 20 on a 20th level character? Borrowing from 21st level?
I was told that we can't have spell casting past 20th, because we are not yet epic.
Color me ignorant...
Assuming that wizard and cleric were the first six class levels. Mystic theurge doesn't give bonus feats. Loremaster at 4th level also does not give a bonus feat. You didn't take a HOPF that gives class abilities that would include a bonus feat.
When you reached your third level in loremaster you appear to have taken Applicable Knowledge as a Secret, giving you one feat. HOWEVER, you may not save feats. This feat would have to have been taken by 19th level, there is no way for you to have four levels in loremaster and have this feat available.
While it is true that the HOPF's may have been taken at any point, and some require being taken at character level 1, if you are not yet 21st level, you can't have a fourth HOPF. I see no posting that says okay to your request on the board. I do see a specific denial, noted above.
Akor specifically replied to your post stating that the THREE HOPF feats were in addition to normal feat progression.
So I guess the question I keep asking, is where is the bonus feat coming from?
As I noted above, Dog specifically stated no to a fourth HOPF at 20th level.
So are we now assuming that 20th level is really beyond 20 and eligible for epic feats?
I would also like to hear what the consensus is on the wording of Spell Shifting. I can see where Sparel is using the wording "You are allowed to swap out one pattern spell for a new choice at every even level." I think he missed "You have a number of pattern spells equal to your HD, to a maximum of two pattern spells per spell level." Then there is "When you select a spell as a pattern spell, it must be a spell of a class level you are able to cast, and the choice cannot normally be changed."
I read that to mean that at 20th level, two spells of each spell casting level must be labeled as pattern spells, these are not open slots to use on the fly. That you may have two selected for each spell level, and at every even level you can change out which one is in a slot, replaced with another of the same level.
From the wording this is to work as a cleric uses domain spell slots.
Sparel does not have any of his Pattern spells selected. In addition, he has not enough at low spell levels, and too many at higher levels (no 1st or 2nd, six at 6th level, etc. I realize it isn't stated, so I am personally okay with splitting the pattern spells across any spell casting classes he has, assuming he can cast spells of that level.
Loremaster secret: Applicable knowledge. It's also notated in my "feats and powers" tab.
You're mistaken on several things, but I don't feel compelled to correct you as I feel it will fall upon deaf ears.
You seem to think I'm cheating or hiding something. I assure you I'm not. Frankly I don't appreciate your combative attitude. It goes against the spirit of cooperative play. If you're going to continue in this way I personally would rather not play with you. I've see games quickly become un-fun because of such players.
You (Q) seem to have a different style of play with different expectations. This game doesn't seem to be a good fit. I'd like to politely ask you to find a different game. Best of luck and good gaming.
At what point a player takes a HOPF has been left open. At least two of them require first level, and the others can be at any point.
The only way I can see that he gets a bonus feat at 20th level is to take Prestigiouus: Lore Master.
Lore Master is the only Paizo class/prestige class that gives an open ended free feat. All the other classes that give bonus feats limit them to a list, or to combat feats. And none of the HOPF's are noted as combat feats. (I checked)
Sparel did not follow this option.
What do the rest of the players think?
If they are of a similar interest in allowing you to bend the rules then I will accept a consensus.
The rules are quite specific that feats can not be saved and selected later. So yes, I would state that you are 'cheating'. I've taken the time to outline where and how I am basing my views, you are not.
As I said I ok'd it with dogblade. If you look you can probably find the conversation in this or the recruitment thread. I didnt need to take prestigious as i took levels in loremaster. Also, applicable knowledge isn't restricted to a combat feat. It clearly states "any feat." You're confusing it with the rogue talent. If we need to revisit that I'm happy to discuss it with the DM, but not you.
I took that lore master secret at 20th level. Which is epic level and the HOPF's are epic feats per our original dm. How is that cheating exactly?
because you have four levels of loremaster, so you could not have taken a third level class ability at fourth level.
Can you post the link or date when dogblade said ok? all I found, and referenced is where he said no.
because you have four levels of loremaster, so you could not have taken a third level class ability at fourth level.
You may have a point. I may have made a mistake. I'll check in more detail when I get home. All you had to do was say it politely.
Can you post the link or date when dogblade said ok? all I found, and referenced is where he said no.
Can you link that?
Edit: I'm on my smartphone.
I know most GM allow rebuilds of PCs when they get around Epic level.
With adding levels of Mythic I would as a GM say rebuild, but that's just me.
Mind you this is not relevant i know, but I would give Sparel the feat just for making the Demiplane: The Gateway, because I think is such a cool idea. :) Thats because I'm a Herowars / RuneQuest player where all games players get stuff for adding to the game world :)
Thanks Rosa. :-)
Q is actually right about the feat though. When he pointed it out like an adult i realized what he was talking about. As I didn't build the character organically I made a mistake. My bad. I'll correct it when I get to my home computer.
Dogplade stated on 9/30/12 at 4:39 AM "Yes your 20th bonus may be any of the discoveries but may not be an additional HOPF."
I think you were considering a straight wizard at this point.
Don't you kinda need create demiplane to actually create a demiplane? And the greater version to stack on the special effects... (I think it's a cool idea, though it would likely throw global economics into turmoil)
If we decided to allow rebuilding at 21st level, that would be fine, but it would be at 21st. I didn't see anything about doing a rebuild for adding in mythic though I am still fine with that.
If anyone had looked at my Sharn's spell list, they would have noticed that many of the spells were not optimized as they were selected to provide the basis for custom gear, equipment, holdings, etc.
create demiplane can be done from 1 or more scrolls. although doing it in that manner would mean any future changes to it would also require a scroll, and i think you would rapidly reach the point of it being cheaper just to scribe the spell.
i think sparel's book has all the spells for his classes that write down spells, i believe he said something to that effect.
Dogplade stated on 9/30/12 at 4:39 AM "Yes your 20th bonus may be any of the discoveries but may not be an additional HOPF."
I think you were considering a straight wizard at this point.
Don't you kinda need create demiplane to actually create a demiplane? And the greater version to stack on the special effects... (I think it's a cool idea, though it would likely throw global economics into turmoil)
If we decided to allow rebuilding at 21st level, that would be fine, but it would be at 21st. I didn't see anything about doing a rebuild for adding in mythic though I am still fine with that.
I clarified later with Dogblade that BONUS feats post 20th level could be HOPF as they were effectively "EPIC feats". Though it's a moot point as I've already said you were correct about the bonus feat. I got it at 19th not 20th. I made a mistake and I shall correct it.
I have no idea why you think I can't create a demiplane. I have 9th level wizard spells and I've already paid for all of the ones in the corebooks.
Edit: now if you're done attacking me I recommend paying attention to this next part.
With the gateway, it was made clear it had been around for a wile and its was I think inherited, Artifact, Thinking economics in a word of high level magic always makes my head hurt so I keep away from such things, lets face it, your typical 45Int dragon would be the head of a magic corporation overseeing vast magic workships if all they wanted was gold to sit on, so I just stop there, :) hehe.
As for the Sharn, the thing with the Sharn was and still is that the fact the core PC's up in the 90+ Point build as a race, way way above Drow noble and the rest of us. Cutting down the Sharn to 41 points will in my view make it a playable race that fits with the power level of the three PCs in play now. Its still powerful mind you, built as a meta-gestalt, it could be gestalt (race) + (gestalt HOPF) add to that mythic, (Another kind of gestalt) you get a party on one PC and no need for the rest of us.
Rosa knows magic and shes a smart lady, She can sneak just fine, but shes let the other two do what they are best at. Im playing her so shes not in competing with the others players core party roles,
Like I said I am a Herowars/runeqest/Amber/Freeform player, I have noted over the years that, D&D and now PD have a very competitive streak in them, "beating the game" and "beating other PCs in power and skill" seem to sneak into game play. As player of some 40 years rules to me mean little of nothing, they just get in the way half the time and the throw them out as a GM more than one, what matters to me, and this is just me is how the player plays and the world + game is made in actions and deeds of the PCs aas directed by the player.
I players saying to me as a GM "Look how cool I made this PC in the rules so HE/She can do this" don't score any points with me.
But
"Look how I roll played, this run of the mill bog stranded PC into this amazing event/Action/Development" Then your going to get GM hand outs.
But that's just me.
Alright everyone,
I'm here to have fun. I like the idea of a communal game where everyone works together and creates a vibrant world. I think it's a great concept that has alot of promise. However, that requires a certain level of decorum from those involved.
That being said I have decided that I have no intention of playing with or putting up with Q. He's been nothing but difficult, combative, and generally unpleasant. He's also accused me of cheating. Hopefully those who've played with me before realize that I'm not the type to cheat at a fantasy game.
I hate to pull the ultimatum card, but I feel it will put an end to this one way or another. The list of people I refuse to play with is short, but today it just got a little longer. The group is welcome to do whatever it likes, but If Q plays I will gracefully bow out. I have enough strife in my real life that I'm simply not willing to deal with it in my fantasy sanctuary. You're even welcome to use Sparel as an NPC if you like.
If you do choose to allow Q to play I will not hold it against anyone and it will have no bearing on any present or future games we may play together.
Regardless of the groups decision I would just ask that we put it to rest quickly. If I am the odd man out I will leave gracefully and not bother this thread again. Hopefully, Q is willing to do the same should it come to that.
I await the group's consensus.
Let's just let the Sharn rest. With dogblade stating that we can effectively have unlimited wealth (though at one point he said 1 million for personal gear, which is where I would expect to find the cost of adding spells to my spell book), having several rods of metamagic, quicken isn't going to be a problem and will effectively replace one of the two hangups that players had with the Sharn.
The second hangup on the Sharn is:
STR 28, DEX 32, CON 31, INT 38, WIS 36, CHA 31
My 40 RP race has the following stats:
STR 27, DEX 34, CON 28, INT 44, WIS 36, CHA 32
How?
25 pt buy STR 10, DEX 11:1, CON 11:1, INT 17:13, WIS 15:7, CHA 13:3
Race -2 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha (advanced stats with adv INT)
Advanced Template +4 all
Half-Celestial Template +2 STR, +4 DEX, +2 CON, +4 INT, +4 WIS, +2 CHA
Level Increase +4 INT
Wish/Tome +5 all
Items: +6 Int, Wis, Cha; belt +6 Str, Dex, Con.
Differences:
STR -1, DEX +2, CON -3, INT +6, WIS -, CHA +1
Add in a perma-haste item, a couple rods of greater metamagic, quicken, and the only difference boils down to the flanking ability of the Sharn portals and the multiple attacks. Pickup a couple of sidekicks and I effectively have multiple attacks.
sigh.
I was hoping these issues would just be put to rest and put behind us.
I can see both sides of the argument (primarily between Sparel and Q'q, with the rest of us chiming in from time to time). I can understand Monkeygod's point of view when it comes to not having two Mystic Theurges. I can understand everyone being mad about him having such a powerful race approved through a now-absent GM. Was I going to complain? No. But I do agree with them in varying degrees.
For Q'q: I get that you are tired of getting attacked and tired of getting your ideas criticized. I would be too. Honestly, I would probably have dug around in other character sheets to make sure they were up to snuff as well. Sadly, I have seen this same sort of behavior (from both primary parties), however it was from young 21 year old military men who are very competitive and prone to take offense. I had thought this group an older crowd, but that is mostly beside the point. In my personal opinion, when making a character of a prestige class that another character has already taken, the polite thing to do is to ask them. Prestige classes are typically more focused than base classes and therefore less flexible thematically, and therefore make up a larger part of your characters theme, making it more difficult to not "overlap" with another character quite heavily.
For Sparel: I get that you didn't like your character being counter-attacked, although it did turn out that you had one messed up feat. No big deal honestly, most of us will admit to having messed up a feat before. That said, your debate language was not above reproach. There were a few times in there where you were calling/suggesting/insinuating (that) Q'q (was acting) childish. Whether truth or not (it's subjective opinion actually) it is poor form to resort to such.
I am not a fan of players being ejected from games, but I suppose that stems from my IRL games where there aren't exactly a message board full of games to join. I am even less a fan of ultimatums.
TL;DR / Conclusion: I have to side with Sparel on this one. He already has a character made (slightly flawed or not) and introduced and active in the game, whereas Q'q does not. Furthermore, I had not seen an offer to GM from Q'q, although that is less of a deal than the disruptive (if not somewhat understandable) behavior from Q'q.
Ok Sparel I had a feeling it may end this way, your not the only one to be unhappy with the discretion's to the game play.
If its Sparel or Q'q in game.
It has to be Sparel, sorry Q'q, hes all ready in play, playing well and put the world building game time in, I'm a pragmatist so its that simple for me.
That's my vote guys
Thanks guys.
I'm not a fan of ultimatums either, but I'm less of a fan of this conversation continuing. I would prefer to end it and get back to the game. We were having fun and I would like to do that again.
Regarding the bonus feat, I have already conceded that I made a mistake and I just fixed it.
Need to pick a new feat, but I did remove the HOPF
Now about that magic door...
I definitely wish it didn't come to this. I don't like the thought of having to kick a character out. I have been on the end of that kinda thing, and it sucks.
But,
I have to agree with the rest. Q has seemed to be overly combative, especially since nothing really serious was said, at least on my part.
If the choice comes down to Q or Sparel, as the others have said, Sparel has already been a very active part of this game, while Q has not even gotten in the game, though that isn't exactly his fault.
Therefore, Sparel has my vote to stay. Q, I am sorry it came down to this, I really am, but the group has spoken and as with other things, we as a whole rule.
and here, nearly done, is my new character.
I apologize for taking so long. At the time of this post, I need only to:
I will for sure get these things done tomorrow, but now i must go to bed.
I haven't added my mythic levels yet. We're doing 4, correct?
thats the last news i saw. i believe he said "at least 4, so go ahead and add them" or something similar.
Yup, four tiers of Mythic.
I haven't added in mine just yet either, so no worries.
Husbands birthday dinner tonight, so it'll be at least tomorrow night before I get to it.
have a great meal and time SR
maybe just ask the door to open
maybe just ask the door to open
How do you say "friend" in elvish?
Open Sesime street?
Need a group ruling here:
Armor Master (Ex): You do not suffer any armor check
penalty or arcane spell failure chance when wearing
light armor or using a shield. In addition, the maximum
Dexterity does not apply so long as the armor you wear
is light. This ability can be selected more than once.
The second time it is selected, it also applies to medium
armor. The third time it is selected, it also applies to
heavy armor.
Akor wears a mithral breastplate, which is considered light armor.
Do I need to take Armor Master once, or twice?
I know WotC ruled that mithral armor, if lowered to the right category, would not affect a Ranger's abilities. Not sure if that's the same in Pathfinder, and even if it is, if it would be applicable here.
I am inclined to say only once, but I am unsure.
once I have it in another game
I say only once, and i say so because the ability states NO ACP or ASF%. The ACP and ASF% are what you would normally suffer for wearing mithral breastplate without medium armor proficiency, and the ability doesnt have medium armor proficiency as a prerequisite. as such, i would rule that any ol' wizard could pick that ability (provided he was a mythic champion) and wear any armor that falls under the light armor category with no problem.
furthermore, this alias is Tenro's submission for his next character. Everything is done except spells (plus appearance and history which i will likely cover with my first post)
once
alright Tialvoron is allllll done except for some pesky formatting issues with the site (where a spoiler doesnt work and then everything afterwards is centered vice left-aligned)
but anyway, he is totally done and ready to be introduced into play.
were you still planning on introducing him Monkeygod or did you want me to write an intro?
EDIT: fixed it, guess i can't have a spoiler inside of a list
Before I forget,
We are not actually Mythic just yet. So whatever bonuses and abilities we get via being Mythic will not be available to us in any possible upcoming fight, once we breach the doors.
A! that means a PC unrebiuld for me then
i will just be adjusting numbers downward on the fly. i'd rather spend 5 mins per turn adjusting numbers downward to whatever current value is necessary than spend 50 minutes unbuilding the mythic off my character and 50 minutes building the mythic back on later
I didn't mean you need to once more rebuild your character, just don't include the bonuses and abilities in any upcoming fight.
Rosa, can you post IG please?
I'll just hold off putting the Mythic Levels on then.
KK lookin at here, I its just 5 less HP and I think thats it
"Paid for all the spells in the core books"
From pfsrd, scroll purchase costs
9th level spells (41) x $3825 = $156825, 369 pages
8th level spells (48) x $3000 = $144000, 384 pages
7th level spells (66) x $2275 = $150150, 462 pages
6th level spells (75) x $1650 = $123750, 450 pages
5th level spells (90) x $1125 = $101250, 450 pages
4th level spells (96) x $700 = $67200, 384 pages
3rd level spells (123) x $375 = $46125, 369 pages
2nd level spells (142) x $150 = $21300, 284 pages
1st level spells (108) x $25 = $2700, 108 pages
0th level spells (28) x $12.5 = $350, 28 pages
Total $813650, 3288 pages
*(arcane school and opposed schools not noted on char sheet, most 0th level spells no cost, 3+ int mod +2 1st lvl spells have no cost, 2 2nd lvl spells no cost)
This is half the million gold that was stated as the amount to consider for personal gear.
First of all,
Why are you still going on and on about this?? We took a vote, much as I wish it didn't come down to that, and you were asked to kindly leave, and to try and be a good sport about it. Clearly, you're incapable of either.
Secondly,
If you go back over the recruitment thread some more, and maybe even in the early pages of this discussion thread, you'll see that the one million gold was more of a guideline, then a hard rule. In fact you'll note, there is very little in the way of hard rules, period for this game. In fact, you said it yourself "million gold that was stated as the amount to consider for personal gear." Consider, to me, sounds like we should think about being around a million, but we don't have to.
Finally,
So Sparel has a ton of spells in his spellbook, ooooh scary stuff. How many can he cast per day of of each level? and how many per round??
Also, his flying ship, my outpost, the ruined city Tenro had with his character, pretty sure puts all of us over the 1M gold 'limit'.
Now then, I pride myself on being a fair and decent GM, always trying to go out of my way for my PCs. I am not always the best, and get easily distracted and sometimes forget to update or what have you, but I always try to do the best I can for my group.
That said, dude, go away. All you're doing now is coming in here, crying about Sparel and really acting like a child who didn't get it's way.
Its very unbecoming, and I had hoped you were better than this. It is obvious I was wrong. Please stop cluttering the discussion thread with useless whining.
Also my spells are calculated using blessed books, not purchase of scrolls.
no need to dismiss the spell really. no need to have maintained it. if you used it as a calling spell the gate was open only long enough for said creatures to come through, if it was just used for planar travel from your office plane to here then best to stop concentrating and wade in there to fight
Combat maneuver (disarm) is fine, but I was hoping I could pull it away from him at the same time. Perhaps violently so. Just dropping it to his feet seems a bit of a waste. I'd prefer to violently thrust it out of his hands, but that's not strictly RAW.
Thoughts?
Telekinesis was printed obviously before the APG, wherein Drag, Reposition and Steal were added in as combat maneuvers, along with Dirty Trick.
I would say either of the first three could function here, though not sure if one of them represents the concept better than the others.
You know my intent and I already rolled CMB. I trust you to adjudicate fairly. :-)